steve
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by steve on Mar 19, 2010 20:46:46 GMT -5
Dear Shane,
First of all allow me to congratulate you, you have a recorder with the earliest style of aluminum tube holder, this one was one the very first new style two minute recorder with the arm, no notch and the glass diaphragm. These are very rarely seen as they were weak and replaced by the wrapped design that was first alumium and later copper and some were nickel plated. You also have the brass top four minute recorder which is very hard to find. What is the date of the recording blank box? I would guess 1912 and is the blank brown? What is the serial number of your 2 minute recorder? I am trying to see when the stopped the early tube.
With regards to the recorders allow me to add variety. Frow has a large amount of omissions and errors in his reproducer and recorder section. On the early reproducers the serial numbers are down by the lettering, just before 400,000 in the late 390,000's the serial numbers went around the sound tube. With the recorder it was the same. I am a reproducer nerd that has spent the last ten years researching and if you ever have trouble getting to sleep I will be happy to record the next reproducer conversation I have with Paul Baker. On the last Frow book you can see where he referenced a letter I wrote about the early B that replaced the automatic. He is mistaken with his automatic reproducer information, in 1900 the automatic weigh was almost doubled, in 1901 the automatic got a hinge block and limit pin and this bottom was added to the new style top to create the early B that replaced the automatic. The B was retained in 1902 for the Gem, but the early B is found on all machines made during 1901, the standard, home, and triumph. The B did not get its notch until around serial number 17000.
Secondly the four minute style of holder was first used on the two minute, I have a number of two minute recorders that have the same style as the four minute with the rubber diaphragms. This is another area that Frow omits. He stated the two minute recorder was discontinued in 1912 which is again incorrect.
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Post by coyote on Mar 19, 2010 23:54:08 GMT -5
Steve,
Thanks for the interesting info. Sometimes we tend to make the Frow book into a bible, but I suspect there are a lot of details on reproducers and recorders that were just too complex and beyond the scope of the book.
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Post by matty on Mar 21, 2010 4:30:42 GMT -5
Hi Steve, Thank you for that very detailed information on the recorders. It's good to know that someone out there is keeping some sort of record regarding the serial numbers & changes made. The blank cylinder box shown uses Form No.476 June 1, 1912. I have 8 or 9 of these, & they all contained the black 4 min blanks with the June 4, 1907 patent date. All my examples appear to be paste-over labels, as shown in the picture below. Another example of Edisons "Waste nothing" policy. I only have 4 recorders & they are as follows. The 4min pictured- S/N 539249 brass TAE in original box with the last patent date Oct 17, 1905 & the last digits of the S/N visible on the box seal (form no.404) The 2 min pictured- S/N 343164 brass NP in "a" box with the only patent date of May 28, 1905. Another 2 min- S/N 348218 brass NP with the same aluminium cutter mount, and in the same box as above. The last is a 2 min recorder I got with a Gem I recently bough. It is S/N 91349, brass NP, but has no box and the cutter mount is missing. This one also has the straight limit loop as pictures in Bjorns photo.-as opposed to the L shape in my pictures. Any idea what style of cutter was used on this one? Hope this helps.
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steve
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by steve on Mar 21, 2010 12:16:36 GMT -5
Hello Shane, You might be interested in knowing the last four minute recorder with the brass top sold for $280 on eBay. 91349 would have come with the folded aluminium cutter holder. There are actually three types of the aluminum holders. The first style has two tiny wimpy arms, the next the arms developed into a smaller version of the common fan shape, then the common fan shape. 232178 has the straight limit loop and 271434 has the bent one. Here is 25891 you will note it has the latest style of two minute holder, either someone swapped it out or the original owner had it repaired around 1910 when the improved holder was being used. Steve Attachments:
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steve
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by steve on Mar 21, 2010 12:39:23 GMT -5
Another interesting thing on the early B and the new style recorder (the old was the automatic recorder) up until at least 6209 the tops have thinner plating and machine marks are visible. It appears they were machined. From around 6809 and up the tops are shiny and match the arm. On the earlier ones you can see the arm does not march the top. The serial numbers have a different font on the early ones. Somewhere in the 17,000 range the notch appears. 17251 has no notch, 18350 has the factory notch. Many were filed by later owners. On early B 17089 the notch appears, Feb 1902. The recorders have their own serial numbers, and the early B had its own until it was joined with the C and D both which have blank weights on the earliest model. All the small top reproducer share the same set of serial numbers so you can get an idea when the H and K (A582724 July 1909) joined in. A830000 is when the pot metal weights first started to appear which I would guess late 1910 or early 1911. H B99927 is the highest top I have ever seen so I guess 1914. Attachments:
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steve
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by steve on Mar 21, 2010 12:44:18 GMT -5
Shane,
Does your box for the four minute recorder say four minute on it? I have three late boxes and two are for the four minute and say (four minute) and the other says (two minute) in parenthesis and are all dated 1913.
Steve
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kevan
Junior Member
Over Hill and Dale
Posts: 87
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Post by kevan on Apr 2, 2010 13:51:27 GMT -5
Very interesting NOW Lets hear some recordings??? Kevan
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Post by klangfix on Apr 5, 2010 16:17:56 GMT -5
I have not received my cylinder blanks yet. I have ordered a couple from UK. I hope they show up this week. Then I will record a song with lyrics in a south swedish dialect written by my grandfather in 1919. I think this will be a suitable song to be recorded.
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Post by edisonphonoworks on Sept 21, 2010 18:57:13 GMT -5
Cylinder blanks need to sit at the factory for 30 days, to cure, otherwise they shrink and the surface has not fully hardened. I have made 10,000-14,000 Edison blanks.
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Post by edisonphonoworks on Sept 21, 2010 19:05:08 GMT -5
The hard black wax blanks, for 4 minute recorders, will wear out the cutters on the recorders, especially 4 minute ones, after about a dozen recordings. The 4 minute blanks are made of recycled Edison Gold Molded records, additional stearic, and ceresine wax was added to facilitate recording, these are not able to be shaved on a phonograph or with a dictaphone shaver, they will tear and make holes in the surface. (I have shaved them by throwing the belt off the feedscrew on my Ediphone shaver, and slowly feeding the shaver by hand turning the cutter (from thick end to thin end, backwards of playing.) with the feedscrew wheel, it take forever. These blanks were designed to be shaved with the hand powered box shaver, with the long blade and nothing else, dissolving the surface with gasoline, or mineral spirits will work, but has much more SN ratio than the long blade shaver, but prepared to lose your cutter after a dozen recordings.
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Post by coyote on Sept 29, 2010 10:50:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the info on the 4-minute black wax blanks. I've always wondered how these fared for recording, but never had any to test. In your opinion, what is the best (if any) medium for 4-minute recordings? I've used both your and original brown wax blanks for 4-minute recordings, and despite what I've heard others say in the past, they seem to perform well and hold the smaller groove, as long as you're not planning on playing them to death, or using a heavier reproducer. I've also heard that brown wax will get "harder" with age, is there any evidence (even anecdotal) for this?
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steve
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by steve on Jan 8, 2011 23:21:44 GMT -5
I used a four minute recorder on a regular brown wax blank and it worked very well, you can go loud with no divots.
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chuckrr
New Member
Cylinder Iconoclast
Posts: 8
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Post by chuckrr on Mar 29, 2011 16:26:56 GMT -5
Every one of the original Edison 2M sapphire cupped-point recorder cutters I have measured are .040 inches in diameter.
The flat-ended "Expert" cutter from England is .0355 inch diameter.
The two cupped-point Edison cutters I found that were made by Rich Goodin both measure .042 inch dia. , and they were made nice and long (.41 inches long!!)
Those cutters (if they can be found) are very nice to use because they can be snapped off to whatever length you want them to be.
One thing to keep in mind when dealing with 2M recorders, cutters and recordings is the fact that it all originates from a large diameter (.040 inch dia.) cutter, and that the record grooves are spaced .010 inches center-to-center.
Combine that with the fact that an average 2M groove is roughly .002 inches deep, and you can get some idea of what the geometry of it is.
As the cutter digs deeper into the wax, the groove becomes much wider because it's digging in at the edge of the large diameter of the cutter. (large relative to the groove spacing and depth).
So, you can see that if it digs just a little bit too deeply, that pretty soon the groove width is so wide that it gets over into the territory of the grooves next to it. That is what causes blast and echos.
To envision the shape of a 2M groove, take a coin (a quarter) that's a little less than an inch in diameter and hold something straight across most of it, covering it up. Leave about one sixteenth of an inch of the edge exposed. That tiny curved segment is a very rough picture of a 2M groove as it would be cut by the 2M cutter, which is represented as the coin.
Those grooves are wide, but not very deep.
Hope this helps a bit.
Chuck
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Post by edisonphonoworks on Apr 4, 2011 14:14:24 GMT -5
I know my early white blank would work fine on 4m recorders, as they had almost .4% aluminum, while brown wax is .25, so you heat those old ones from 2000-2001, and I bet they record nice on four minute, and are a lot kinder on your cutter, than the recycled stuff in the black 4m original blanks. I have custormers who want recordings on them, and I can get a nice recording on the 4m blanks, but I have a heck of a time shaving them, and the wear on my cutter,honestly i think the four minute black wax, is gold moulded wax, with a little more ceresine, and stearic acid added, but not much, so they are too hard.
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chuckrr
New Member
Cylinder Iconoclast
Posts: 8
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Post by chuckrr on Apr 9, 2011 15:58:57 GMT -5
I would really like to hear back any comments from other collectors or experimenters about the subject of recording. Specifically, I would like to hear from anyone else who has ever successfully made a stylus holder for an Edison home recorder. I would also like to hear various stories about how well (or not how well) the 2 minute cutters from "Expert" in England work.
So far, I have successfully made (3) stylus holders for Edison home recorders. Two of those rebuilt recorders used Rich Goodin's cupped-point cutters. Those two recorders both work very well. One of the recorders uses the flat-ended, chisel-pointed (NOT a proper cupped-point at all) 2M cutter from "Expert". That recorder works, but not nearly as well as the other (2) of them do. Naturally, my conclusion based on these tests indicates to me that the flat-ended "Expert" cutter does not in any way work nearly as well as the proper cupped-point cutters do. But, I would like to hear of any results obtained by others along these lines.
So, I would like to know what kind of results others have had along these lines. Shawn and I have talked this over quite thoroughly.
Anyone else out there doing these experiments? Any ideas are fair game too... Diaphragm materials and thickness, various stylii, variations on stylus holder. Anything anyone else had done.
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