|
Post by wagnerian on Aug 22, 2012 3:30:52 GMT -5
Love the avatar!
I'm actually bidding on a couple of wax Amberols on the UK Ebay at the moment, so keeping my fingers cross, I may be lucky.
Although it sounds like a joke, Tadcaster does really exist and is between York and Leeds, although why Jimmy Hendrix should be there, I have no idea. Especially when everybody knows he's working with Elvis Presley in a car wash on the Doncaster By-pass.
All the best
Tim W-W
|
|
|
Post by pughphonos on Aug 22, 2012 20:25:42 GMT -5
Tadcaster must be a quirky place if someone thought it would be fun/weird for Hendrix to be there; but I take it from you that Doncaster is even MORE so!
BTW, on US Ebay I just won two Special wax Amberols: D ("The Ninety and Nine") and J ("The Hermit''s Bell Overture"). I already own wax Special G ("I'm Looking for a Sweetheart and I Think You'll Do").
Ralph
|
|
borrilabs
Junior Member
"The Crazy ""Misguided Hobbiest"" who dared to make authentic cylinder records with spiral cores.
Posts: 57
|
Post by borrilabs on Sept 2, 2012 13:22:32 GMT -5
Wax Amberols do have a great sound when they are in like new condition. I still do not know the composition fully of them. I have always found that molded wax records do not warp as much as celluloid records do. The key to the wax moulded record, more true running qualities lies in the fact they were put on tapered mandrels for two hours, to contract. I was scolded by collectors of this point as being off for making this claim. r I have read it from the production notes for the early gold moulded production notes, and in the 1912 American Machinist article for the spun molded records. You can see what I am talking about on page 17 in the article "Manufacturing Wax Cylinder Records" in the 2011 October/November "In The Groove" republication of the may 23rd, 1912 American Machinist article from The Henry Ford collection. The scolding was the fact that the records had to sit for two hours, how could 80,000 record be produced in a day then if the records had to sit for two hours on these cores?? The answer, is there were thousands of these cores made, they were simple light, sheet metal tapered tubes and the records were set on these on a tray holding 24 10,000 sereis GM or 4 minute Wax Amberols, They were stacked in a room for two hours, and then taken out, and a hand press, pressed all the cores out of the records, and there you have a nice true moulded metallic soap record. Edison's team had experimented with making molded records as early as May of 1890. We many never be able to tell, which records were made by a molded process, however it is noted that sub masters for brown wax records were actually made from a molded process, not all of them but the records used for pantographing purposes, there were two reasons, the process was not perfect yet, and so it was used for making duplicate dubbing masters only, and two, the artist wanted to record by the round to make more money, and objected for a long time to making only one master. The early was of making molded duplicates was a tight fitting brown wax blank, put in a warm mold, and a mandrel forcing the hot blank to to the grooved walls of the mold, removing the tapered plunger, and the blank cooling, and the moulded record comping out. Molding was worked on first by Dr. Schulze-Berge around 1889-1890. The Wurths father and son worked on moulded records about 1898 and it was the George W Johnson records that were experimented with for duplication. About 1900 small scale moulded production was set up and by 1901 for commercial purposes. The first high volume moulded records were made by a molding machine having a wax tank underneath, a long brass tube with a plunger, the moulding being on top of the tube, and a hollow mandrel that went to the bottom of the tube, and wax filled the space above the mandrel, and a plunger pulled up the charge of wax into the top mould, and the whole plunger assembly taken apart and these molds, the ends trimmed, the interior reamed, and put in a cooling box, the records come out and are put on warm cores for two hours. Later on, not sure the exact date, but whenever the harder wax was used, 1908 the spinning process of wax injected into a bell shaped spinning mold, and lathes finishing the inside, and again put on the mandrels to contract.
|
|
|
Post by pughphonos on Oct 19, 2012 21:36:12 GMT -5
Hi Borrilabs, you've done amazing research and it does make sense--how else could the Gold Molded 2m and Amberol 4m records have such even inner surfaces and ribs unless they had cooled on mandrel-like cores? The phonographic literature from the old days contains many clues as to how it was all done but you're the rare enthusiast who has sought it out; many of the other photographic hobbyists concentrate on the mechanics or the music and not the archival sources. I look forward to further posts from you!
|
|
borrilabs
Junior Member
"The Crazy ""Misguided Hobbiest"" who dared to make authentic cylinder records with spiral cores.
Posts: 57
|
Post by borrilabs on Oct 22, 2012 11:22:13 GMT -5
PughPhonos Thank You. The quest for information on blanks and record manufacture has been met with scorn and ridicule. First you have to find the documentation, and to do this you have to know the players involved, and the main research on Phonograph cylinders is Jonas Aylsworth,D.A. Dodd, Walter Miller, Charles Wurth and Theo Wagemann. And for Columbia Adolph Melzer, and Mr Fargo. As you said, I concentrate on the making of the medium rather than artist or song, although I do make recordings, the blanks are what I work on most. And I take suggestions and complaints very seriously and try to make improvements upon suggestions of customers as my blanks must last a long time to hold important documents. I am one person and my annual blank output has been from 500-1300 blanks per year making a grand total of about 12,000-13,000 pieces. Many collectors still insist that the 1888 records are yellow paraffin, however this material will not stand up to many playings, If you go to the Thomas Edison Historical Park and look at the 1887 Ezra T Gillaland machine, and the early 1888 pre-perfected phonographs, you will find blank records I made corresponding to the formulations in the Aylsworth notebooks of the time. The blanks I make are based on the formulations by Mr. Aylsworth from about 1898 for Edison records. Yes I am very slow at making these blanks and records. I live in an apartment, so If it is winter, I have to have a window open with a fan, as I have to make wax inside, and There are some summer days when the humid conditions cause problems with the wax, early fall, and spring are my prime times of blank making, and most orders are from September to January when I am not able to make them as efficiently, as the neighbors are not happy with the fumes of the wax, which are quite strong and produce a white powder everywhere, from the vapors of the wax, and not to mention a fire hazard, you must never leave the wax un-attended as it is molded at very high temperatures. A few collectors have spoiled my book idea to come to fruition, by attempting to steal and duplicate my wax, and so now I have to keep my whole process a secret, as I have too much money and time invested to give such research away, this may be why the developers did the same thing. The formula itself will not make good blanks, it is how the cooking process is performed and that certain processes need to be performed at exact temperatures and times, and if they are not, even though all is measured, and correct the end result will be poor. Blanks have to sit around for awhile, to make sure they do not fog too much, a little is OK, as anyone can look at a mint Gold Molded record, and see the very light bluish white coating on the surface inside and out of the cylinder, which goes away when the record is played, and does not return because of the age of the record. I have also been met with problems because of my Mohawk and lack of a PHD, how dare I be able to make such a thing and at such a young age (I started research on wax when I was in first grade.) And how dare I record modern music groups on the cylinders. I actually make more blanks and records for the recording industry,musicians, public museums and the U.S. government than collectors., about 80% of my production goes to studies in ethnography and language, 15% to musicians and performance artist and 5% to phonograph collectors. I think that the most fair way of performing my task fairly is to only accept orders, but not any payment until the order is finished, I never know when a technical problem will set me back, a little thing like a chipped shaving cutter will set me back a long time, as you can't make cylinders with out a sharp sapphire knife and I have to shave half the blank away to make the finished product.
|
|
|
Post by mctodd on Oct 24, 2012 20:33:52 GMT -5
...a little thing like a chipped shaving cutter will set me back a long time, as you can't make cylinders with out a sharp sapphire knife and I have to shave half the blank away to make the finished product. Shawn, have you seen The Victrola Guy make a replacement shaving blade from a utility/craft knife? Check out his YouTube video: REPLACEMENT CUTTING STYLUS FOR THE DICTAPHONE SHAVER youtu.be/AsvCnB2tfl8Inspired by this I made a shaving machine from parts of a Standard phonograph (an unrelated bedplate and case bought separately) and scrap: It works a treat, I've already shaved down three dictaphone cylinders, shaved a couple of Paul Morris blanks, and erased numerous test recordings, all with no apparent blunting of the blade or diminution of its cylinder-shaving properties. Obviously you don't need to make a whole shaving machine as you already have one, you just need to make the replacement blade as The Victrola Guy did, but I posted the above image and description of my effort to show that it does work!
|
|
borrilabs
Junior Member
"The Crazy ""Misguided Hobbiest"" who dared to make authentic cylinder records with spiral cores.
Posts: 57
|
Post by borrilabs on Nov 24, 2012 11:54:04 GMT -5
It does work, I made a similar knife many years ago when I was down a shaver, although I think I used a piece of phonograph spring and honed it on a stone. I do think that a sharp sapphire does a little better job than the alternative, but it does work none the less. My shaver though is used about 14 hours a week,so that is more shaving than most do in a lifetime! The new blanks take about 45 min to shave down to the normal diameter they come out of the mold at 2.398" and are shaved down to 2.195"
|
|
|
Post by nealage on Dec 23, 2012 10:52:30 GMT -5
I am new to cylinder collecting, and there is some good information for me here. For my 2 cents, I have to say that it has been difficult to add many of the overpriced-for-their-condition wax cylinders. I've seen some pretty moldy and worn wax with asking prices of $10, $15 and up, per cylinder (very difficult so far to find people selling them in lots, too). I've been lucky that of the 35 BAs I've acquired so far, only 4 need reaming.
|
|
|
Post by refseries on Feb 2, 2013 6:42:42 GMT -5
With reference to Pughphonos question in August (I really must catch up with my mail...) I don't know when they were recorded but the Specials A-K were released in April 1910 and could be had for $1 when bought with a 2/4 minute conversion set. In August 1911 this was extended with the Hebrew range Specials L-W, also sold for $1 with the conversion set. From June 1910 the Special D series (D1-D24) was launched, which came in orange boxes, and customers could select six of these as a bonus for introducing a successful customer sale to a dealer. The wax Specials A-K were reproduced as blue Amberols for a similar deal to the wax ones for customers buying a conversion set.
By the way we should be careful when moaning about the 'Damberols'. Without dubbing from Diamond Discs it is probable that National would have ceased cylinder production much earlier and we would have less records to play today. Having said that the wax Amberol a magnificent piece of engineering. Just think - a 200tpi record, made acoustically, reproduced with poured wax, which is still playable over 100 years later. To my tired ears and well preserved wax Amberol is the best cylinder reproduction you will ever hear!
Keith
|
|
|
Post by maroongem on Feb 2, 2013 10:00:19 GMT -5
By the way we should be careful when moaning about the 'Damberols'. Without dubbing from Diamond Discs it is probable that National would have ceased cylinder production much earlier and we would have less records to play today. Keith You might be thinking of the later BA regarding the dubbing process from disc to cylinder, which began in the late fall of 1914. AFAIK, all 4M Amberols were direct recordings from a wax master and moulds were made from these masters. I do agree that an unworn 4M Amberol has a fine sound, much better than the later dubbed BAs which had a hit or miss quality. BillF
|
|