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Post by neophone on Feb 10, 2008 20:59:25 GMT -5
Larry,
Sounds like a break-through! Excellent! Keep pluggin'
Regards, J.
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Post by larryh on Feb 10, 2008 21:09:29 GMT -5
Thanks John,
So far this last one is holding up and playing quite well. I heard from the two persons I sent the very earliest designs too, both were thankfully positive in my being headed in the right direction. That was at least two weeks ago and slow but steady progress has been made since, what you would hear now is much better than those.
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Post by neophone on Feb 10, 2008 21:14:12 GMT -5
Larry,
Excellent! I'm looking forward to hearing one.
Regards, J.
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Post by larryh on Feb 11, 2008 13:28:26 GMT -5
So far the second test of the same design is yielding about the same results, only haven't played a wide range of records but so far so good, this is at least a breakthrough from the standpoint of getting a second to act like the first. I find that this design is very close to the original in sound and reaction. When I hear a defect I think is in it 95 % of the time the original will show the same or worse. Since I am using the Edisonic for comparisons the heavier weight most likely makes the defects appear slightly less due to the needle staying in the groove better, but the same issue will show on both most times.
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Post by larryh on Feb 12, 2008 9:44:34 GMT -5
Wouldn't you know, I have made several more of these that indeed sound good at full volume, but with the mute shut the distortion level of the diaphragm is too high. I am looking for the reason but so far haven't been able to figure it out. I am starting to see why they say Waltrip's diaphragms had about one good one out of every 10 he made. I know I am on the right track but sometimes I get pretty frustrated with this project now into the fourth week..
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Post by lukewarmwater on Feb 12, 2008 12:34:08 GMT -5
Larry -- Here's an idea to try . . . soak the paper in PEG (polyethylene glycol) and then let it dry to plasticize it. Woodworkers soak green wood in PEG -- which replaces the water -- so the wood can be worked as if it were still green, but without the shrinkage, distortion, and splitting if it were allowed to dry out normally. I suggest this since Edison stiffened his laminated rice paper diaphragms with shellac, PEG should do nearly the same to whatever type paper you're using. Ethylene glycol is the main ingredient in anti-freeze, but I don't think anti-freeze would work though in place of straight PEG, as it won't polymerize when dry like the polyethylene variety. Luke W.
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Post by larryh on Feb 13, 2008 13:01:11 GMT -5
Not a lot to report except that I finally removed the original diaphragm from my Edisonic head that has a new needle and put in one of the best design and it did play clearer. That older head has the original needle and I am also suspicious the rear spring metal piece may be effecting the tracking, which could explain some of the feedback, but not all.
I am going to send off the one I tested this morning to MaroonGem to get his thoughts on the improved results. Still not perfect, but pretty good in most selections. Soon as I can fabricate some others that do similar I will send them to the people I have on my "tester" list.
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Post by maroongem on Feb 13, 2008 16:53:48 GMT -5
Not a lot to report except that I finally removed the original diaphragm from my Edisonic head that has a new needle and put in one of the best design and it did play clearer. That older head has the original needle and I am also suspicious the rear spring metal piece may be effecting the tracking, which could explain some of the feedback, but not all. I am going to send off the one I tested this morning to MaroonGem to get his thoughts on the improved results. Still not perfect, but pretty good in most selections. Soon as I can fabricate some others that do similar I will send them to the people I have on my "tester" list. Larry, Are you comparing one of your new diaphragms in a Standard Reproducer to an Edisonic? Different weights all together. Bill
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Post by larryh on Feb 13, 2008 21:15:49 GMT -5
Yes I had been using the standard reproducer. The only other reproducer I had here to test against was the Edisonic with a new needle in it and an original diaphragm.. When I switched the new diaphragm over to the Edisonic head it sounded better. I suspect the needle is reading the record better which eliminated some of the fuzzy issues I was hearing at times. I think this diaphragm could be used in either head, although if I ever settle an assembly process for the standard I could look at something a bit different for the Edisonic, but not sure why the need?
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Post by larryh on Feb 14, 2008 9:52:31 GMT -5
Yesterday was one of those days that I nearly put all the mess all over the place away and said "enough". As reported I have a design that works pretty good. But then I discovered as has always happened some styles of voices that just buzzed in places. Well I perfection wasn't exactly the starting goal, buy hey where your so close why not? This morning I put back in one of the diaphragms I had created with a larger cork center to see if it made it though those parts. Wouldn't you know it, it pretty well eliminated the situation. But at the loss of some of the separation of instruments I had been hearing. And of course some of the volume also. When compared however with the original design of Edison I found it to be pretty darn close though. I think I pointed out earlier something which is more and more apparent with each try. The reason most Edisons sound so quiet is that he had to use that large amount of cork to dampen the vibrations to the diaphragm that were coming from the records. I am going to take yet another look at this one with the larger cork, I think it is the same assembly method only with a larger cork center, minus one small paper piece. I am going to try reducing the cork a little at a time to see where the cut off on the excessive buzz in that vocal comes in. Maybe there is a happy medium.. Which leads to another question. Would some people who mainly want to hear dance records or even classical instruments want a diaphragm that brings them out better even though it wouldn't perhaps navigate some high sopranos?
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Post by larryh on Feb 14, 2008 10:36:32 GMT -5
I was wrong about the loss of volume. Maybe its the combination of all the parts drying well, I have a tendency to test quickly after things hold together but haven't "aged" as things go. I am getting lots of volume with great clarity with this larger cork center now.. Again the hopes it can be easily recreated?
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Post by larryh on Feb 14, 2008 17:41:55 GMT -5
Somewhat interesting so far today.. I went ahead and made several sets of the third design using the larger cork center. The good thing is it did as I had predicted, reduced the feedback and tendency to buzz in some high portions. But it also is a little bit less sensitive, which is exactly what I thought would happen. I also watched and found that the shellac indeed does become more resonate after curing or a while. At first the parts when assembled were very pliable which in my earliest designs seemed to add life to what turned out to be too many pieces. As they dried a day or so they became too hard and lost clarity. This one started out a bit too resonate sounding, but as the shellac is aging that tendency has become lessened. I was still switching out different ones for comparisons to see where I was. I was a bit sadden by the reduction in some depth to classical symphonic pieces that with some of the really sensitive designs were nearly breathtaking. But it seems to be a compromise that even Edison must have settled on. As I listened and was tying to ascertain what this designs good points and bad points were, I decided to put in one of the "expert" diaphragms just to see if indeed I was still in the lead tone wise. Gee I felt good after that. I even gave the others the use of my Edisonic Head and at first cut the volume a bit so that it would be a more even comparison, but it quickly became apparent that opening the sound to full volume still left it behind mine in volume. On most records you might as well have put the machine in another room and shut the door on it compared to even this somewhat subdued last design. So I am outplaying a different one using a Edisonic head for theirs. I must be on the right track. Perhaps eventually a real "tone test" might be of interest on one of the groups? When I say it is quieter I made another change that seemed necessary. I had for a while used the larger floss for the loops to the stylus. While that does increase what you bring out of the records, often to an advantage, it also drive some instruments too loudly and become shrill with a bit of a fuzzy edge. So back to the smaller size. I guess if someone had one they could alway add a different loop of heavier floss for an experiment. Since these are had created there is a bit of variance that might allow for even louder sound on some but the smaller is more like the sound Edsions had at the time, and even then it can become quite loud.
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Post by larryh on Feb 15, 2008 7:06:42 GMT -5
I was right about the shellac drying making a difference. As the day went on the diaphragms became stiffer and also improved in sound and volume. It seems to be a good compromise at this point. If a couple others I have made turn out to represent the first one I will send them out today for testing.
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Post by larryh on Feb 17, 2008 16:25:06 GMT -5
I am still here! Constantly testing and trying things. That last design with the smaller center of cork was good at many things but I wasn't still happy with a few things I was hearing, so I went yet again back to the larger center design. Now that it had dried well and was more ridged it seems to have reduced to yet another new low feedback and trouble some distortions that were showing up in the last batch. I put together at least 8 of them and only a couple seemed free of external diaphragm noise that could be distracting let alone tainting the sound overall. Have four of the new ones going and will know in a day or so if it is the answer or yet another false alarm.
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Post by lukewarmwater on Feb 17, 2008 17:08:18 GMT -5
To heck with the shellac . . . soak 'em in PEG!
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