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Post by maroongem on Nov 26, 2007 13:00:53 GMT -5
Link's not working. Ah, OK I got it cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220176864143&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohostingLooks to be for an Albany Indestructible 2M probably for Columbia as they made their 2M and later 4M celluloid cylinders. The Lambert Indestructible Record of Chicago went bankrupt in 1906 and the patent was transferred to Albany who made celluloid cylinders from 1907-1922. Frugal Tom finally paid for a license to mfgr. celluloid cylinders in 1911 and thus the BA was born. Bill
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Post by gramophoneshane on Nov 26, 2007 20:29:12 GMT -5
I don't know of any other company that put out a diamond stylus (other than Jewel, but these were for Edison) at that time for cylinder play. The Indestructible Record Company made a diamond stylus reproducer too. As this one on ebay is made to fit an edison carriage, I'd say this is actually a diamond stylus, unless it's been changed.
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Post by lukewarmwater on Nov 26, 2007 20:53:07 GMT -5
Aha! The plot thickens . . . !
I haven't had a chance to look up the article in my old APMs . . . I'll try to get to it tomorrow evening. Luke W.
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Post by maroongem on Nov 27, 2007 13:27:05 GMT -5
I think if you look at the enlargement of the stylus in the listing, you will see that it is a sapphire in the usual doorknob shape.
Bill
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Post by maroongem on Nov 27, 2007 13:31:06 GMT -5
I don't know of any other company that put out a diamond stylus (other than Jewel, but these were for Edison) at that time for cylinder play. The Indestructible Record Company made a diamond stylus reproducer too. As this one on ebay is made to fit an edison carriage, I'd say this is actually a diamond stylus, unless it's been changed. Could you please supply some documentation on this. I'd be curious to see what it looks like. Bill
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Post by gramophoneshane on Nov 27, 2007 15:28:52 GMT -5
I don't have any pictures, but I do have a book called
The Indestructible Record Company, Albany, N.Y. United States
A listing of American & British Two & four Minute Cylinders 1907-1922
Compiled by Major H.H.Annand Middlesex,England
In the front, is a few pages on the history of the company. It states....
So far as is known, the company did not manufacture machines, but for the purpose of playing their records on existing machines, a tension reproducer with a DIAMOND stylus was introduced. With characteristic honesty the company stressed in their advertisements, that these reproducers were not suitable for playing wax cylinders.
I guess there's no reason they couldn't have made a door knob shaped diamond stylus. Unfortunately, the book doesn't say whether both 2 & 4 min reproducers were made, or if a "one size fits all" was produced. It would be great to see the original advertisements. I can't imagine them making reproducers, with their name on them, that were meant for wax cylinders that they never manufactured.
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Post by lukewarmwater on Nov 27, 2007 16:02:37 GMT -5
The U-S Everlasting Co. of Cleveland, Ohio made machines . . . not to be confused with the Indestructible Phonograph Record Co. of Albany, NY. Two different companies. Luke W.
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Post by maroongem on Nov 27, 2007 16:09:04 GMT -5
Hmmmmmmm. That book came out in 1970. I would still like to see even one pic of a pre Edison made diamond stylus for playing cylinders. As far as that pic being a doorknob shaped diamond is highly doubtful. But whatever...............
Bill
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Post by lukewarmwater on Nov 27, 2007 18:24:52 GMT -5
Aha! The plot thickens . . . ! I haven't had a chance to look up the article in my old APMs . . . I'll try to get to it tomorrow evening. Luke W. OK . . . just re-read the article in Vol. X, No. 1 (1991) APM. Varian Mortimer Harris was a Chicago chemist who actually preceded Thomas Lambert in producing a a molded celluloid cylinder in the United States. He partnered with an Edmund A. Balm to produce a flexible advertising cylinder that could be included as a premium in breakfast cereal. One (at least) of these cylinders has survived. Balm & Harris' firm disappears without a trace and Harris resurfaces as one of the three founding partners of the Lambert Co. After Lambert's bankruptcy in 1906, Harris continued to experiment at home trying to perfect a cylinder 1/3 the thickness of a Lambert(!) In the fall of 1909, Harris was contracted by the U.S. Phonograph Company of Cleveland to spearhead technological development of their recordings and to establish the record manufacturing plant. As I mentioned earlier, a label has been found between the layers of the rolled up cardboard tubes that make up a U-S Everlasting box that states "The Harris Everlasting Record" and manufactured by "The Cleveland Phonograph Record Co., Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A." Bill Klinger, the author of the article, speculates that perhaps no cylinders were ever shipped in these boxes. Luke W.
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Post by maroongem on Nov 27, 2007 21:33:07 GMT -5
Aha! The plot thickens . . . ! I haven't had a chance to look up the article in my old APMs . . . I'll try to get to it tomorrow evening. Luke W. OK . . . just re-read the article in Vol. X, No. 1 (1991) APM. Varian Mortimer Harris was a Chicago chemist who actually preceded Thomas Lambert in producing a a molded celluloid cylinder in the United States. He partnered with an Edmund A. Balm to produce a flexible advertising cylinder that could be included as a premium in breakfast cereal. One (at least) of these cylinders has survived. Balm & Harris' firm disappears without a trace and Harris resurfaces as one of the three founding partners of the Lambert Co. After Lambert's bankruptcy in 1906, Harris continued to experiment at home trying to perfect a cylinder 1/3 the thickness of a Lambert(!) In the fall of 1909, Harris was contracted by the U.S. Phonograph Company of Cleveland to spearhead technological development of their recordings and to establish the record manufacturing plant. As I mentioned earlier, a label has been found between the layers of the rolled up cardboard tubes that make up a U-S Everlasting box that states "The Harris Everlasting Record" and manufactured by "The Cleveland Phonograph Record Co., Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A." Bill Klinger, the author of the article, speculates that perhaps no cylinders were ever shipped in these boxes. Luke W. Did you realize that the Everlasting/MW record was a sheet of celluloid that was bonded at the seam over the composition core? I've seen a few of them split and i'll be darned if I know how they bonded that seam. It must have been some kind of vulcanized process to make the surface smooth for the impression of the groove/recording. Bill
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Post by gramophoneshane on Nov 27, 2007 21:37:06 GMT -5
Yes Bill-1970. Is that a problem? I guess the Major may have had some bad acid, and got it all wrong ;D
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Post by maroongem on Nov 28, 2007 11:12:57 GMT -5
Yes Bill-1970. Is that a problem? I guess the Major may have had some bad acid, and got it all wrong ;D Probably some bad chutney. ;D All I'm saying is why has one never come to light in any other reference book?
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Post by gramophoneshane on Nov 28, 2007 12:45:19 GMT -5
Good question. I guess they never sold well in the beginning, because then like now, people were led to believe a sapphire stylus was fine to use on a celluloid cylinder. It's a shame the ad wasn't included as a reference, though I doubt he'd make it up. Perhaps if the diamond was a knob shape on the few that turn up, everyone would just assume it was a sapphire. Still, if the old Major saw the ad for diamond stylused indestructible reproducer in the UK, there must be advertisements for them in the US as well?
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Post by maroongem on Nov 28, 2007 12:59:23 GMT -5
I did find that they modified an Indestructible Mod. N with a sapphire stylus from an Edison Mod. B Reproducer to be used on a Regina Hexaphone Mod. 102. I wonder if this is what the Major was referring to? As for cutting a diamond into a ball shape, I suppose we'd have to ask Izzy Tinklebaum in the Jeweler's Bldg. to see if it could be done!!
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Post by gramophoneshane on Nov 28, 2007 13:25:55 GMT -5
The way I read this info on the edisonshop.com reproducer guide, Indestructible only ever made reproducers for celluloid cylinders, and of the example this guy owns, 2 were modified to fit regina's, one of which was modified using a diamond B. There's actually a picture of a model N the same as the ebay reproducer, along with 2 other variations-one with an edison stylus bar. So I guess if the N is for celluloid only, it must be a diamond stylus.....
The Indestructible reproducers were intended for playing that companies brand of celluloid cylinders and were not intended for wax cylinders. While they do not turn up in large numbers anyone wishing to add one to their collection should be able to locate an example at one of the phonograph shows. These were well made and feature a spring tension device intended to keep the stylus good contact with the record surface at all times. I have several examples, each of which has a different diaphragm. One which is modified for use on the Hexaphone has a ridged & spoked metal diaphragm and features a stylus similar to the Edison Diamond A/B/C reproducers. Of the others I have one has a mica diaphragm and two have what appears to be a paper or composite diaphragm. I have another one which was also modified for use on the Hexaphone and has the weight, stylus & diaphragm of the early Edison B reproducer. Prices on these vary from $150.00 to $250.00
BTW: Where did you find the reference to an Indestructible Model N having a sapphire stylus?
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