Dean
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Posts: 23
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Post by Dean on Jan 24, 2009 18:35:17 GMT -5
Hi Bill. I didn't know the bar through my belt was an anomoly. Anyway, how do I get the d**m thing out. I don't want to bend the bar. Unless it is more of a gentle coaxing bend and pull to remove it. I was thinking of removing the pulley, so I can more easily get at the brass gear for cleaning. Anyway, I think I'll wait for some reply's before attempting it. Let me know if you find the punch marks on your other machines. I'm curious. Does anyone else out there have these marks? Are they on every machine? What's your theory as to why they are there. Dean
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Post by maroongem on Jan 24, 2009 19:16:27 GMT -5
Hi Dean,
I just checked 2 of the 3 other Homes we have (the 3rd is buried on a shelf so I'll have to dig it out later) and the Home A has five punches in a circle with a 6th in the center and the other, a Home B has 7 in a circle with an 8th in the center. As I said in my previous, all I can think of is that is some type of mark to denote which casting it came from. As far as the wire/rod, does it go right through the rim of the pulley but not into the belt groove? You may want to put a few drops of penetrating oil on either side of the wire and let it soak in then try and grasp below the rim it with a pair of needle nose pliers wiggle it back and forth a bit and see if you can push/pull it through either side of the pulley. That is a very interesting oddity. As I said earlier, I've only seen that on the later Amberola flywheels. I hope George sees this and perhaps can give a clue.
Bill
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Post by phonogfp on Jan 24, 2009 19:37:30 GMT -5
Well, as long as you asked...! My guess is that the original set-screw was lost and this was Yankee Ingenuity at work. If the hole in the pulley is threaded, that will answer the question. Of course, it may have been drilled out to accept the pin...
George P.
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Post by maroongem on Jan 24, 2009 21:01:52 GMT -5
That's the first thing I thought of too George. But he said the screw was broken off, so did they drill another hole through the pulley hub and shaft? Very weird!
Bill
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Post by bostonmike1 on Jan 24, 2009 21:27:52 GMT -5
george---as usual you are correct. this is a half-ass repair. anyone with any mechanical ability should see this. the drive shaft has been comprimised by 75%. simple math---- drive pin 1/8 (.125) minus a 1/16 (.062) pinhole=.062---or a total loss of 50% of mass. but you cannot stop here . the .062 is now divided by 2 since the back side of the pulley in rotation is the driving force against the pin and the leading edge just following for the ride. that leaves .032 (or 25%) of pin strength remaining. i could get into the physics of force( foot pounds generated combined with the composite material driven) and explain the equation but it is not important here. any machinist /engineer worth his pay would have known at a glance at that picture that it was not designed in that manner. that is why a set screw is used --- to maintain the integrety of the driving mechanism (the shaft.) thanks again George for using your knowledge and logic to correct these half-baked suppositions as you do. your friend michael to me these forums are eqivilent to a creative writing course---just throw it out there and see if it sticks (actual facts do not seem to count)----but when you speak I LISTEN!
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Post by matty on Jan 24, 2009 21:51:20 GMT -5
Well, as long as you asked...! My guess is that the original set-screw was lost and this was Yankee Ingenuity at work. If the hole in the pulley is threaded, that will answer the question. Of course, it may have been drilled out to accept the pin... George P. If you look at my blurry photo on the first page, my pulley has the same rod holding it to the shaft. My Home is supposed to have been a 1908 model, so it may be something only found on the last of the Model B's? The last Home I had also had the wire rod too. The wire is set into both sides of the pulley, but does not go through the pulley. My motor has 3 punch marks with another in the centre btw.
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Post by klinkmi on Jan 24, 2009 21:54:05 GMT -5
I am presently restoring a Home mod C and I have the same situation with the belt pulley. At first I though someone had lost the screw and and stuck the rod into the screw hole. None of my other Edison's have this . If this was not done at the factory , I would love to know how they drilled such a small dia. hole into a 3/16 dia shaft. I also have the same type of markings between shaft #1 and #2 but I have 8 dots. Seven of then are in a circle with one in the center. I'll try to get some pics.
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Post by maroongem on Jan 24, 2009 23:30:49 GMT -5
Ok, I think I've got it now. Apparently, that rod was used in lieu of the set screw to hold the pulley to the shaft. I've never seen this before so is this found on later Homes as suggested? I only have an A and 3 Bs and all are sans that rod. Did that also double as a balancer to control the flutter too? Anyone have a C or later Home that they can weigh in on? As the shaft is hardened steel, I doubt this was done anywhere than in the factory, so homemade is rather out of the question.
Bill
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Post by matty on Jan 24, 2009 23:50:25 GMT -5
No, it doesn't Bill. It just secures the pulley to the shaft with no freeplay/movement. I guess there must have been some issue with the pulley remaining firmly attached to the shaft, or or repairmen stripping the thread in the alloy pulley from over tightening the screw?
Dean, I think the last patent date on your machine might actually be May 22, 1908, which is what mine reads, and my serial number is 334928. I'm guessing your serial no will also be fairly high?
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Dean
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by Dean on Jan 25, 2009 3:38:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the offer of the gaskets Bill. I actually have to order a number of small parts so it is probable just as easy to order the gaskets at the same time. Any hints on cleaning a copper diaphram? Mine is covered in 103 years of black gook that doesn't come off all that easy. My wife says vinegar and baking soda, but she is probably just trying to get me to blow myself up. Dean.
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Dean
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by Dean on Jan 25, 2009 3:59:44 GMT -5
Gramaphoneshane. I stand corrected. You were right. It looks now like it is May 22, 2008. Although every time I look at the darn date it changes between a six and an eight. Less wine and stronger reading glasses are required here. The serial number is a high one 333875. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Does this also solve the pulley bar mystery? When I look at the back of my pulley, there is also a tiny hole that looks like it could be a set screw of some kind. If it is, it is miniscule and there isn't a screw driver in my box that would be small enough to get it out. Regarding the punch marks in the motor body, everyone seems to be reporting an orderly circle of marks with one in the center. I now suspect the factory guy was working on my machine on a Friday after a liquid lunch. My marks are hap hazard and two of them actually over lap each other. It would suprise me if this was a mold code. Is no one going to buy into my metal spreading theory to perfect the alignment of screw holes? If not I'm giving up on it.
Thanks again for the help. More dumb questions to follow. Dean
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Post by matty on Jan 25, 2009 5:09:08 GMT -5
You are right Dean- there is also a screw on the other side of the pulley! Strange that they used 2 ways to secure the pulley to the shaft. Mine actually has a set screw in the hole, rather than a grub screw set into the pully, so your screw may be missing? I know what you mean about the patent dates too. I was also seeing a 6 or an 8 until I got a strong torch to the tag. I noticed your punch marks looked a little untidy, but I don't think they were done by hand to spread the metal. Being cast iron, the metal would shatter if it was struck with any force. Having only 3 outer marks on mine, it forms a triangle with another dot on the middle.
As for the diaphragm, it probably depends what the black gook is. If it's just tarnish & verdigris, I'd personally use a rust remover/converter that contains phosphoric acid to remove it, as this won't remove any of the metal along with it. If it appears to be paint or oil or some other foreign matter, I'd start by trying alcohol or thinners, and work my way up to stronger solvents from there. Whatever you use, just be careful not to dent any of the ribs on the diaphragm or it will effect sound quality.
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Post by maroongem on Jan 25, 2009 9:46:36 GMT -5
Where both of your machines still retain the set screw feature (with one still having the screw present) it really makes me lean towards the flutter control found on the latter Amberolas. As Shane says, cast iron is brittle and the position of the marks serve no purpose for stretching the metal. Prick punching/stretching is a old clock repairer trick to close pivot holes the have oblonged due to wear. It is a poor way of reparing and looks like hell. The proper (and neater looking) repair is to ream out the old hole and install a bronze or brass bushing. I use ammonia to clean my darkened diaphragms. I just pour a little in a shallow dish and drop the diaphragm in it. Leave it there for a bit and you will notice a big difference. I also use this method to clean out the crazing in porcelain pocket watch dials. The dirt that accumulates in the tiny cracks disappears almost immediately. You can use an old tooth brush to gently scrub the surface.
Bill
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Post by klinkmi on Jan 25, 2009 13:21:28 GMT -5
I am guessing that both these machines in question are later B's. My mod C has the last pat. date of May 22, 1906 with the serial # being 338434. It also has been converted to a 2-4 min the mandrel has #C-D stamped on it and the belt pulley is stamped C.
Mike
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Post by phonogfp on Jan 26, 2009 21:35:35 GMT -5
Well, that thin rod is a mystery to me. I have a Home Model D here that doesn't have it. I wonder if Bill is onto something with it having been a repairman's fix. Perhaps some dealers were repairing them this way...perhaps inspired by the flutter control they were seeing on later Amberolas? Pure conjecture on my part. There's nothing relating to this in the Edison Phonograph Monthly.
George P.
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