steve
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Post by steve on Jun 17, 2015 18:14:47 GMT -5
If you still have your 80 one was on eBay recently, I think it did not meet reserve around $3000 or $3500. They are extremely rare but the demand is not that high. What is the serial number of your reproducer? 1109 does not appear to have the original reproducer, a diamond D, as I have never seen a Diamond D with a black painted top and the extra lead weight is missing. I am the only one I know who has rebuilt a diamond D with the extra lead weight, the sound is not that good which is the reason the lead weight is not attached in many cases. The Diamond D sounds much better with the extra lead weight removed and to attach the extra lead weight the reproducer has to be placed in the carriage first and will not come out of the carriage with the extra lead weight attached. The extra lead weight is nickel plated. All the diamond D reproducers I have seen are nickel plated.
I could be wrong and if so please provide me with serial numbers above 1109 as 1109 is the highest serial number I have seen so far. I believe the serial number started out at 1001 and I do not think much more than 110 of each were made. I have tried to research these for years with very little luck as they are very few and far between. The 60 and the 80 did not share serial numbers as I know of both a 60 and an 80 with the same serial number, 1109.
The Diamond D is seldom seen but was made from 1926 on and is a lot more commonly found than the 60 and 80 combined. The Diamond D appears in the 307,000 to 309,000 range. The Diamond C was made during this time but is very rare, I have only seen 4 Diamond C's compared to around 30 Diamond D's. 309117 is the highest Diamond C I have seen. Some of the very last Diamond D reproducers do not have serial numbers like the one found on Amberola 60 # 1109.
60's and 80's are in New Zealand, but I have not heard of any in Australia. They are also in England, that is where one of the two known oak ones came from. I mostly research reproducers, that is where my knowledge mostly is. I am currently in the process of collecting serial numbers for the 60 and 80 which I started about 5 years ago. So far I have 3 for the 60 and 5 for the 80 with 2 more 60 serial numbers on the way, hopefully.
I appreciate learning, if I am wrong please let me know as it will not be the first time. I am actually happy to find this discussion.
Steve Medved
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 8, 2011 23:21:44 GMT -5
I used a four minute recorder on a regular brown wax blank and it worked very well, you can go loud with no divots.
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 21, 2010 12:44:18 GMT -5
Shane,
Does your box for the four minute recorder say four minute on it? I have three late boxes and two are for the four minute and say (four minute) and the other says (two minute) in parenthesis and are all dated 1913.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 21, 2010 12:39:23 GMT -5
Another interesting thing on the early B and the new style recorder (the old was the automatic recorder) up until at least 6209 the tops have thinner plating and machine marks are visible. It appears they were machined. From around 6809 and up the tops are shiny and match the arm. On the earlier ones you can see the arm does not march the top. The serial numbers have a different font on the early ones. Somewhere in the 17,000 range the notch appears. 17251 has no notch, 18350 has the factory notch. Many were filed by later owners. On early B 17089 the notch appears, Feb 1902. The recorders have their own serial numbers, and the early B had its own until it was joined with the C and D both which have blank weights on the earliest model. All the small top reproducer share the same set of serial numbers so you can get an idea when the H and K (A582724 July 1909) joined in. A830000 is when the pot metal weights first started to appear which I would guess late 1910 or early 1911. H B99927 is the highest top I have ever seen so I guess 1914. Attachments:
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 21, 2010 12:16:36 GMT -5
Hello Shane, You might be interested in knowing the last four minute recorder with the brass top sold for $280 on eBay. 91349 would have come with the folded aluminium cutter holder. There are actually three types of the aluminum holders. The first style has two tiny wimpy arms, the next the arms developed into a smaller version of the common fan shape, then the common fan shape. 232178 has the straight limit loop and 271434 has the bent one. Here is 25891 you will note it has the latest style of two minute holder, either someone swapped it out or the original owner had it repaired around 1910 when the improved holder was being used. Steve Attachments:
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 19, 2010 20:46:46 GMT -5
Dear Shane,
First of all allow me to congratulate you, you have a recorder with the earliest style of aluminum tube holder, this one was one the very first new style two minute recorder with the arm, no notch and the glass diaphragm. These are very rarely seen as they were weak and replaced by the wrapped design that was first alumium and later copper and some were nickel plated. You also have the brass top four minute recorder which is very hard to find. What is the date of the recording blank box? I would guess 1912 and is the blank brown? What is the serial number of your 2 minute recorder? I am trying to see when the stopped the early tube.
With regards to the recorders allow me to add variety. Frow has a large amount of omissions and errors in his reproducer and recorder section. On the early reproducers the serial numbers are down by the lettering, just before 400,000 in the late 390,000's the serial numbers went around the sound tube. With the recorder it was the same. I am a reproducer nerd that has spent the last ten years researching and if you ever have trouble getting to sleep I will be happy to record the next reproducer conversation I have with Paul Baker. On the last Frow book you can see where he referenced a letter I wrote about the early B that replaced the automatic. He is mistaken with his automatic reproducer information, in 1900 the automatic weigh was almost doubled, in 1901 the automatic got a hinge block and limit pin and this bottom was added to the new style top to create the early B that replaced the automatic. The B was retained in 1902 for the Gem, but the early B is found on all machines made during 1901, the standard, home, and triumph. The B did not get its notch until around serial number 17000.
Secondly the four minute style of holder was first used on the two minute, I have a number of two minute recorders that have the same style as the four minute with the rubber diaphragms. This is another area that Frow omits. He stated the two minute recorder was discontinued in 1912 which is again incorrect.
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 19, 2010 20:19:21 GMT -5
The 4 minute recorder, the J and the H all have green tops to associate them with the wax amberol. Note the Blue Amberol, Edison dyed them to distinguish them from the wax amberol. The first two style H's did not have green tops and that must have produced the confusion that gave them the green. The first three H styles have either bars or shoulders that are movable. I have seen a J, a recorder, and an H with a faded top that is yellow. I even saw a model C with a yellow top, it was a faded H top with an H weight. Normally I can tell by the serial numbers which top is correct. You see a lot of the late K with early C tops and the late K had a pot metal top.
There are nine types of the H and four different stylus bars known.
The business machine recorder is red.
19 Mar 2010 Recorders On two minute recorders Edison began to make the tops out of pot metal when he switched to pot metal on all his tops around the beginning of 1911. He also made four minute recorder tops of pot metal. The four minute recorder was colored green to identify it with the four minute records. What is extremely interesting is Edison then made brass tops with the words Sold by Thomas A Edison Inc. All of the other tops from other reproducers with TAE on them are made of pot metal. 528737 is a pot metal Nat’l Phono in the 530’s were still pot metal as Edison always had overlap, but most of the 530’s and 540’s are brass, the highest I have seen is 580007 but the photo was too poor to tell. In the early 500,000 range Edison when to pot metal and the brass TAE tops have a higher serial number. I have seen many four minute brass top recorders and own several two and four minute recorder brass tops with TAE on them. Edison changed from Nat’l Phono to TAE in 1911. In 1913 Edison made recorders with A in front of the serial numbers that were made from a different casting and are pot metal again. I will eventually record the serial numbers I have on these. Edison sold both two and four minute recorders until the factory fire destroyed existing stocks and I believe he made some after the fire. Below are actual serial number details. From the dated boxes I have it appears Edison made the switch to the A serial numbers in 1913 and went to the B serial numbers after the fire. According to Frow the 2 minute recorder was only made up until 1912, which is incorrect. The 4 minute recorder has a new style of stylus holder. I have found two 2 minute recorders with the new style of stylus holder with their original boxes. My theory is that the two minute recorder was upgraded with the new type of stylus holder as I have a two minute recorder in its original box that has the new type of stylus holder. It is a plain two minute box. I have a 2 minute recorder box from 1913 (A3426) and it says (two minute) in parenthesis and the four minute recorder boxes I have say (four minute) in parenthesis and are from 1912 on so the made both recorders at the same time. The latest style of these recorders have a new style of top and an A serial number. The very latest ones just say RECORDER on them. The earliest improved recorder of 1901 with its C style top has an aluminum stylus holder with two narrow strips at the end, these strips were double in size, then later they are the same shape as the copper ones. The later ones are made of copper; some of these are nickel plated. The first new style recorder has an aluminum stylus holder that is a tube with arms to hold the stylus end. By 147632 the aluminum stylus holder was in the more familiar shape. 10300 has the early holder. Then around 1910 the stylus holder was improved, and the four minute recorder was used the improved stylus holder when it came out. I believe in 1913 Edison went to a new top with large serial numbers like the business recorders. The early ones have all the lettering and the latest one I have seen A9727 only has the word recorder on it. This is interesting because the recorder serial number never went over 600,000 but Edison started it over with the A as he did the large top N and these never went over 74,000, 72310 is the highest I have seen. I think Edison stopped the large top serial number around 74000 and went to the A series because of the factory fire, A350 is the highest large top A serial number I have seen. The recorder was stopped early (before getting to serial number 999999) to go to the A series. I believe he started with the A series recorders because of the falling sales in 1913. I believe he started the C series after the fire for the C and H. The first C serial number small tops were pot metal, the later and last ones were brass. 4 minute recorders 528737 and 532183 are pot metal with Nat'l Phono on it. 536905 and 540217 are brass top 4 minute recorders with Thomas A Edison Inc on them and 542228 is also a brass TAE top and was a 4 minute recorder, its original cutter bar was lost and it has a four minute cutter in another non Edison bar. 508232 is a regular pot metal top 2 minute recorder while 527217 is a pot metal top 2 minute recorder with the new style of cutter bar that looks like the four minute. I have the original box and it is the late recorder box, it has the last patent date of Oct. 17, 1905 on it. A3426 is a 2 minute recorder with its original box and the box has in parenthesis (two minute) on it. The actual recorder had a pot metal top and the top was replaced with a brass one, but the late style bottom was still there. Edison went back to brass because A 10068 has the original brass top with no lettering. On the small top reproducers I believe he started the C series after the fire as I have never seen a small top above B99,999. The first C series small tops were pot metal with all the lettering, the later and last ones were brass and had no lettering on them. I have seen photos of two and know of three model C reproducers with brass tops and no lettering. Photos of Model C serial number C18777 are sent on request. Both of these have nickel plated brass diaphragms and cork gaskets. Edison went to cork around 1924 according to Ron Dethlefson. According to Ron the Edison Company still sold diamond disc reproducer parts after 1929 and even made aluminum diaphragms after the rice paper ones ran out so I think Edison provided the earlier cylinder reproducers after the fire. 407167 Nat'l brass top Pot metal tops: A 272 has all the lettering and the regular serial number is on the rim around the sound tube. A 929 has all the lettering and the larger serial number under the word RECORDER. A 8934 top has no lettering and the larger serial number under the word RECORDER. Late two minute with brass top: A 10068 top has no lettering at all and the larger serial number.
B952 Latest four minute recorder has Recorder and serial number on it. The top has a different type of green coloring on it. Beginning with the A tops the material used for the coloring appears to have changed. It almost appears plated on.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 15, 2007 21:10:32 GMT -5
Edison is really interesting to read about, I read about five books on his life and it is really impressive when you see all the things he perfected and invented.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 4, 2006 0:16:57 GMT -5
If you get a chance read the book Out of the Shadow by Charles Edison, it gave me insight into Edison that I did not have before and it tells about how Charles ran the company and kept it going after 1929.
The book is normally available on amazon.com. In the book Charles said Thomas was a great man that cast a very large shadow and Charles hoped he was able to step out of the shadow enough to cast a small shadow of his own.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 15, 2007 19:15:20 GMT -5
The sound comes off the bottom of the DD groove, so you must look at the bottom of the groove. To do this you need a bright light, if the grooves appear brown or gray the condensite is gone and the sound will not be good. The shoulders may still be shiny on a worn out record. Sunlight is good and so is a very bright flash light.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 20, 2007 19:13:44 GMT -5
51178-R 1923.05.18 Green Brothers Novelty (O-dance) Benny! Be yourself! - Foxtrot (Harry DeCosta, M. K. Jerome, Fred E. Ahlert)
This is one of my favorite records, the instrumental is wonderful!
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 15, 2007 21:56:42 GMT -5
Get on NickJay's list, he often sells records at a fixed price and the DD's I bought from him were all accurately graded and at bargain prices. Talk about shipping, he is amazing.
I do not buy DD's any more on eBay unless I know the person can grade. Dave Jolley and Herman Wedemire are also very good to buy from, they both normally make recordings so you can hear them and both are honest. With a DD you have to use a strong light and look at the bottom of the grooves, if you see gray or brown the condensite is gone. Normally you can tell the condition of the record from the label, but I got one with a good label that was worn out, that was the last one I got from eBay. By the time you pay shipping both ways it is not worth returning a DD.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Mar 15, 2007 22:35:27 GMT -5
With Edison's Form numbers the 4 was for disc and the 2 was for cylinder. Some form numbers are easy to read, the last Edison phamplet of records has a form number 4829 which was Disc Aug 1929 and it contains records released in Aug 1929. A cylinder phono catalog from 1901 is form 235, the early ones seem to use which number it was while the later ones seem to have the month and year.
This catalog has record 52209 in it that was released in January 1928 so I know it had to be released in 1928 or 1929 as it uses the late black cameo of Edison. I have always wondered when it was made, but because of the complicated form number I can only guess by the records it contains. If you find the highest catalog number for a record we can have the best guess. I would have bid $40 for it as it is much nicer than mine.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 17, 2007 20:37:29 GMT -5
When I first started DD's were 30 to fifty cents, it took me five years to get used to the new higher prices of $5 for an average record. This record looks excellent, but my 2 dark knight record in the same condition was around $30 on eBay and I thought that was high two years ago.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jan 5, 2007 0:03:01 GMT -5
Wax dictation cylinders were in general use into the 1960's, even after plastic belts and discs were marketed by Dictaphone and Ediphone. After invention of the tape cassette by North American Phillips about 1965, even the Edison Company switched to tapes which were called Edisettes. These were the last audio products made by Edison. tinyurl.com/yfdrcg
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