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Post by gibsonj on Dec 2, 2009 10:16:07 GMT -5
Hey folks,
Happy Holidays!
Does anyone know the scheme used by the factory for serial numbers for the various machines, cylinder and disc? I was wondering if anyone had discovered any clues or research.
Did Edison bracket certain serial number ranges to be unique to particular models? Were numbers assigned sequentially as machines came off the line?
I thought perhaps understanding the serial number logic would lead to estimating the production year of machines. Routinely, I see folks asking questions on EBay about serial numbers for reproducers as an indicator of their relative manufacture date, so apparently there is some known data about reproducers.
Thanks for any insights.
John
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Post by martin1 on Dec 2, 2009 19:55:19 GMT -5
Hi John.
From what I've heard that the serial number data for Edison has been largely thrown to the wind. That doesn't mean it may not show up some day, but little of that seems to remain at the Edison site. One great exception is a listing for serial numbers of early Home models. George Paul published a great article about that a couple of years ago in CAPS' "Sound Box" (if I'm not mistaken). I've heard that other models' information might be in private hands, but nobody has come forth publicly, so far.
I know that some collectors keep track of serial numbers and data on various models and reproducers. (Steve Medved has some really stellar observations about the various reproducer types.) I personally, have been keeping track of Edison Standard data for the past two years and have been trying to correlate the serial numbers with model and feature changes. Right now, my list is up to about 380 machines.
In the case of Standards, I'm pretty sure that the serial number was acquired as each machine was assembled starting with "1" - a more or less chronological sequence. (Frow refers to number 4 in his book and I've seen number 3 at a CAPS meeting.) After the model C and D were introduced, the chronological order seems less certain. It appears to me that blocks of numbers were allotted to different models. This was probably dependent on what was being ordered for stock (Models B, C, and D were offered concurrently).
To make it more confusing, some unsold machines were returned and remanufactured as newer models. (So that a Model F with serial number of 780,000 might be sold after a Model C with a serial number of 803,000, for instance.) Quite often a data plate will have the earlier model with an X over it and the newer model punched-in next to it. The Edison company didn't like to waste parts if they could help it.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the other models followed a similar pattern. I know that the Home numbers started low, (probably "1") and had its own series of numbers. Frow mentioned that on certain later, pricier models that serial numbers seemed to be abnormally high considering their rarity. That would seem to indicate them using a high starting number.
Yours is a great question and I only wish I had more of the answer. If you're interested, let me know and I'll be glad to email my excel file of Standards to date.
Regards, Martin (martin1, martinola)
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Post by gibsonj on Dec 3, 2009 10:06:16 GMT -5
Thanks, Martin. That's what I feared might be the case. I would very much like to see what you've found re. Standards. I have one Standard in my collection that I can add to your list. I'll send the info on mine to you in a day or two.
Looking forward to seeing your spreadsheet. Thanks!
John
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Post by martin1 on Dec 3, 2009 11:16:47 GMT -5
Thanks John,
I'm always glad to add another one. (And this goes for anybody else that might be interested in participating.) Mind you, I might pester you for additional details or photos. I'm looking for: Serial #, last patent date, patent plate location (under mandrel or at rear), model type location on plate (if any), reproducer type, case type (2 clip, 4 clip, New, Tall or Late), case decal type (Banner or Edison script, if any), bedplate signature decal type (first or second), and any other unusual features or info. This is where I find photos to be a great help, as there are always tiny details in addition to those mentioned, that might be useful.
Anomalies do show up from time to time that aren't always easily explained, but the list is especially useful when faced with having to do a total restoration and questions of proper decals arise. Hopefully, others will find it useful as well. My email is : mkauper (at) verizon (dot) net. I'll need your email to send the excel file.
Best Wishes,
Martin
(Martin1, Martinola)
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Post by maroongem on Dec 4, 2009 23:42:21 GMT -5
I have also noted the the earlier machines such as the HOME & STANDARD will have the serial number prefixed by an H or S depending on the machine model. I don't know when this began or ended date-wise but it is another "mystery" in the serial number quest.
Bill
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Post by martin1 on Dec 5, 2009 13:48:12 GMT -5
I have also noted the the earlier machines such as the HOME & STANDARD will have the serial number prefixed by an H or S depending on the machine model. I don't know when this began or ended date-wise but it is another "mystery" in the serial number quest. |
Thanks for mentioning that, Bill. Yes, that's a detail that I've only recently begun to track. (I keep finding small details creeping into the list as I go on.) The last "S" prefix I've found on Standards is a Model B in the 392,000 range, but I don't have that many references yet. It would be good to get a look at shipping records or a bill of sale for a rough date. Until that happens, I'll make a real rough guess at 1905 or 1906 (or 1907? ;D ). Regards, Martin (Martin1, Martinola)
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Post by bostonmike1 on Dec 5, 2009 17:57:42 GMT -5
Martin---I commend your efforts and passion to wade through the quagmire of TAE's numbering system. Though I have no credible information or assistance to share with you in your quest, the very least I can do is supply you with any data from the four Edison cylinder units I have. Please feel free to contact me on this forum by way of PM and I would be more than willing to help you with any imformation I could impart. If some "rhyme or reason" can be made out of this numbering system I am confidant you will determine it---but as a word of warning Martin, when it starts to affect your sanity---just let it go ;D. Michael
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Post by martin1 on Dec 6, 2009 3:15:06 GMT -5
Thanks Michael. Don't worry too much about me: my sanity went long ago. ;D I don't know that I'll really ever figure it out, but one never knows until one tries. Even if I fail to understand it, by having the information collected, maybe someone else will. I like it because it's sort of like collecting without having to buy everything. Please feel free to PM me with your email address and I'll send you a copy of the excel file. You might find it useful and, you'll better see what kind of info I'm looking for. (Of course, photos are always good too.) Best Regards, Martin (Martin1, Martinola)
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Post by tarheeltinkerer on Dec 6, 2009 9:44:29 GMT -5
Martin, A firearms forum I am a member of has a series of data sheets that people can fill out and submit so as to accumulate serial number and design change information to try and place a date on production. Perhaps creating a similar form for Edison phonographs (cylinder and disc players) and then having it sent out to all the phonograph forums would be a worthwhile endeavor. Undoubtedly there are plenty of folks on the various forums who can help you draft and edit these forms. Rest assured I'll be happy to help Cheers, Frank
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Post by martin1 on Dec 6, 2009 16:07:02 GMT -5
Hi Frank, Thanks for the offer of help. Right now, I'm still trying to nail down what the final speadsheet should look like. I find that the possible categories keep expanding as I notice yet one more subtle detail, that I want to document. When that's done, I hope to create a simplified way of taking the data (such as a data form). The other thing that I want to create, is an illustrated "spotter's guide" of typical example machines with detailed photos of features, (for guiding people in filling out the form). Obviously, I'll have to figure out how and where that would be hosted and administered. I've got most of the verbal descriptions done and will have to start shooting photos. I've got models A-F, but I'm sure, I'll have to pester people for detail photos of variations. I'm not in a huge hurry, but until I go to the next step, I'll keep taking info and offering the file in an informal way. Anyway, I really appreciate your help. I will keep you posted. Best Wishes, Martin
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Post by coyote on Jan 26, 2010 11:40:27 GMT -5
Although mostly for Triumph machines, Terry Baer was compiling serial number data for a while. I don't know if he'd have any input on the subject.
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Post by spongebob62 on Oct 13, 2015 3:34:39 GMT -5
Hi John. From what I've heard that the serial number data for Edison has been largely thrown to the wind. That doesn't mean it may not show up some day, but little of that seems to remain at the Edison site. One great exception is a listing for serial numbers of early Home models. George Paul published a great article about that a couple of years ago in CAPS' "Sound Box" (if I'm not mistaken). I've heard that other models' information might be in private hands, but nobody has come forth publicly, so far. I know that some collectors keep track of serial numbers and data on various models and reproducers. (Steve Medved has some really stellar observations about the various reproducer types.) I personally, have been keeping track of Edison Standard data for the past two years and have been trying to correlate the serial numbers with model and feature changes. Right now, my list is up to about 380 machines. In the case of Standards, I'm pretty sure that the serial number was acquired as each machine was assembled starting with "1" - a more or less chronological sequence. (Frow refers to number 4 in his book and I've seen number 3 at a CAPS meeting.) After the model C and D were introduced, the chronological order seems less certain. It appears to me that blocks of numbers were allotted to different models. This was probably dependent on what was being ordered for stock (Models B, C, and D were offered concurrently). To make it more confusing, some unsold machines were returned and remanufactured as newer models. (So that a Model F with serial number of 780,000 might be sold after a Model C with a serial number of 803,000, for instance.) Quite often a data plate will have the earlier model with an X over it and the newer model punched-in next to it. The Edison company didn't like to waste parts if they could help it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the other models followed a similar pattern. I know that the Home numbers started low, (probably "1") and had its own series of numbers. Frow mentioned that on certain later, pricier models that serial numbers seemed to be abnormally high considering their rarity. That would seem to indicate them using a high starting number. Yours is a great question and I only wish I had more of the answer. If you're interested, let me know and I'll be glad to email my excel file of Standards to date. Regards, Martin (martin1, martinola)
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Post by spongebob62 on Oct 13, 2015 3:55:28 GMT -5
Hi martin1 I have a home phonograph with two Closuresa frontsides and two in backsides. Patent plate under the main shaft...serial number H18543. Can you help to ininvestigate the date of build? Greetings manfred62
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Post by martinola on Oct 13, 2015 13:37:37 GMT -5
Hi Manfred. As a rough guess, I'd think your Suitcase Home was sold in the Spring of 1899. George Paul would probably be able to give you a more precise shipping date. You can find him on The Talking Machine Forum: forum.talkingmachine.info/Best Regards, Martin
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Post by phonogfp on Oct 22, 2015 8:10:40 GMT -5
Hello Manfred,
According to original sales data, Edison Home No.18543 left the factory about October 1899.
Best, George P.
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