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Post by klangfix on Mar 16, 2010 10:17:08 GMT -5
I have an Edison standard, on which I intend to experiment by making my own recordings. I have recently bought a recording device to put in the carriage, but it has not yet arrived. I also understand that I need cylinder blanks. Then I have read that there is such a thing as a shaver, to turn the surface clean from an old recording. One person also wrote that it can be difficult to use a shaver on a standard edison, since the motor is not so strong.
Now to my questions:
1. Where do I get the cylinder blanks?
2. Can an old 2M wax cylinder be used for new recordings if it is "shaved" or is it made out of a too hard wax material?
3. Is there an alternative method of using a shaver to turn the surface clean? Would it be possible to use a sharp wood turning chisel and do it by hand?
4. What is the needle width of the standard recorder head? Is it suppose to be recorded as a 2M or 4M. (My machine can do both feed velocities.)
5. Does it exist modern produced cylinder blanks with better performance or material?
6. Is there such a thing as electrical recording heads? I suppose there has been such devices after 1914, after what I have read. But I do not know if these devices only existed at the recording studios.
Yes, that was many questions. I would be very happy for any response. Regards BJörn
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Post by matty on Mar 16, 2010 13:37:51 GMT -5
This link may be of some help. Just click on each page to enlarge it. nipperhead.com/old/recording.htmI get my new recording blanks from Paul Morris in UK. www.paulmorrismusic.co.uk/WaxCylinders.aspI use an Edison dictaphone (Ediphone) shaving machine for my cylinders. It's electric & does a good job, and they can often be bought fairly cheap compared to an original shaver for a Standard. There is a couple ways to shave a cylinder without a shaving device. Rubbing the cylinder with a cloth dampened with petrol or mineral turpentine works, but it doesn't leave you with an ideal surface for recording. Another method is to cut a piece of glass a little wider than the cylinder, then by holding the sharp edge of the glass against the cylinder as it rotates, you'll get a nice flat even surface. I'd recommend wearing gloves & safety glasses to do this though, just in case the glass decides to break. Old 2 minute pre-recorded cylinders can be shaved & recorded on, but they are harder than the recording blanks and generally dont give very good results using a 2 minute recorder. They do work fairly well using a 4 minute recorder though.
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Post by maroongem on Mar 16, 2010 17:54:00 GMT -5
Hi Björn, A few things as an aside. As mentioned earlier, The original Edison GMS are a harder material than the earlier brown and black "wax" cylinders that have non-titled ends. Putting these cylinders on a lathe with a tool rest and cutter is a dicey proposition. Usually they pit, even at very low speeds, and the results aren't very satisfactory. Even the early, moldy brown wax cylinders have hardened over the years, and shaving is hit or miss. The 2M recorders are larger in diameter stylus wise then the 4M recorders and the 4M recorders were stained with a green tinted wash around the top of the sound tube. You are better off, if you want to record, by buying new blanks from Paul Morris or from Shawn Borri at members.tripod.com/edison_1/Bill
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Post by matty on Mar 16, 2010 23:54:23 GMT -5
the 4M recorders were stained with a green tinted wash around the top of the sound tube. Actually, the 4M recorder was dyed yellow to more or less match the 4M blank box in much the same way as the Model H reproducer was dyed green to match the Amerol box.
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Post by maroongem on Mar 17, 2010 10:33:06 GMT -5
the 4M recorders were stained with a green tinted wash around the top of the sound tube. Actually, the 4M recorder was dyed yellow to more or less match the 4M blank box in much the same way as the Model H reproducer was dyed green to match the Amerol box. Interesting. It always appeared to be green to me. I guess both myself and Frow are color-blind.
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Post by matty on Mar 17, 2010 11:50:19 GMT -5
Not necessarily Bill. I guess there's always the chance that very early examples were dyed green too, but they were later changed due to owners confusing the recorder & reproducer? I've never seen a green recorder, but then I've only seen another 2 or 3 recorders that still retained any colour at all.
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Post by maroongem on Mar 18, 2010 11:24:38 GMT -5
I borrowed a 4M Recorder from a fellow collector. The few that I've seen that had remaining stain were this color. My understanding of the reason for the stain was for the owner to know at a glance on a 2/4M machine as to whether there was a 4M Reproducer in place ( Mod H) in the carriage arm or in this case, that the Recorder was for 4M use. Top ViewSide View
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Post by klangfix on Mar 18, 2010 19:15:42 GMT -5
Thanks for all answers. I am certainly learning a lot from you all.
BTW. I have a recorder without any color. Is that a 2M recorder? It looks like the cutter would match my 2M reproducer stylus in thickness.
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Post by maroongem on Mar 18, 2010 21:59:42 GMT -5
Björn,
The cutting stylus for a 2M Recorder is about .037 in diameter and the 4M that I borrowed measures around .018.
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Post by matty on Mar 18, 2010 23:14:25 GMT -5
There is also a couple other ways to tell a 2 & 4 minute recorder apart. The first is the position of the serial number. On a 2M recorder, the number is printed on the large portion of the bezel, and on a 4M it printed directly below the horn tube. (See picture below) The same applies to the Model C & Model H reproducers. This of course only holds true if the recorder/reproducer hasn't previously been tampered with by swapping parts. The other way is by looking at the stylus mounts. The 2M mount is an aluminium tube, and it alone is attached at the outer side of the diaphragm, and the central end has two prongs. Both of these are attached to the diaphragm with shellac. The 4M mount is a steel tube, and it is attached to the outer side of the diaphragm via a 4 legged spider. The 2 pieces of metal between these 4 "legs" actually passes through the diaphragm & are folded under on the other side. This appears to be sealed with shellac. The central end is attached to a big lump of solder, and again 2 legs pass through the solder & diaphragm, and are folded under on the other side. If you get either recorder in original untouched condition, the 2M diaphragm will be sealed into the recorder with a bead of wax. The 4M version was not sealed with wax, but instead used a single rubber gasket that was split around it's inner circumference. This sat over the outer edge of the diaphragm and was simply pressed into the recorder & the rubber formed a tight seal. You'll notice my 4M is now held in with wax (and not very tidily now I see pictures lol) but this is because the original rubber had perished & cracked, so I had no alternative but to replace it with wax as I'm unaware of anyone manufacturing the 4M recorder gasket.
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Post by klangfix on Mar 19, 2010 7:16:09 GMT -5
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Post by maroongem on Mar 19, 2010 9:41:22 GMT -5
Björn,
That stylus appears to be for 2M recording, and if you have a pair of Vernier calipers, you can carefully measure the cutting stylus. It should be in the upper .030 range. In regards to positions of serial numbers, etc, Edison was loath to discard anything if it could be used in an updated product. For example, I have what outwardly appears to be a Dance Reproducer, but the body was used when the New Standard (later called Edisonic) was introduced. I know this because of the serialization. It is stamped LD 6771 NS. The LD designation was used on Dance Reproducers and the NS was stamped on the New Standards. The NS is visibly a different style punch and was applied later at the factory. Also, this particular reproducer does not have the spring loaded diaphragm as is found in the Dance model, just the spring loaded stylus that was found in both types. Another example of waste not, want not is the use of decals. You can see this in examples of Amberola IIIs. The early ones seem to have the older Amberola decal as found on Amberola 1As and 1Bs. and the later ones have the typical Edison script decal as found on the front of post 1906 Standards, Homes, etc and are also found on Diamond disc machines and other Amberolas.
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Post by martinola on Mar 19, 2010 11:17:41 GMT -5
Hi Björn. I think you'll find that the diaphragm is made of mica. Earlier types used very thin french glass. That is what they used originally. Your cutter looks good. I'd certainly give it a try.
Shane - thanks for the great photos. I've got a four-minute recorder that needs a new cutter. (Any suggestions are appreciated.) The serial number placement on the Model C reproducer did change position at one point, (possibly 1903?), to the area closer to the horn tube. That is the version that I most commonly find in the US. Thanks again for the "show and tell"!
Martin
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Post by klangfix on Mar 19, 2010 13:59:47 GMT -5
Thanks for all the fantastic detailed info. It is wonderful to meet so many experienced phonograph enthusiasts here.
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steve
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by steve on Mar 19, 2010 20:19:21 GMT -5
The 4 minute recorder, the J and the H all have green tops to associate them with the wax amberol. Note the Blue Amberol, Edison dyed them to distinguish them from the wax amberol. The first two style H's did not have green tops and that must have produced the confusion that gave them the green. The first three H styles have either bars or shoulders that are movable. I have seen a J, a recorder, and an H with a faded top that is yellow. I even saw a model C with a yellow top, it was a faded H top with an H weight. Normally I can tell by the serial numbers which top is correct. You see a lot of the late K with early C tops and the late K had a pot metal top.
There are nine types of the H and four different stylus bars known.
The business machine recorder is red.
19 Mar 2010 Recorders On two minute recorders Edison began to make the tops out of pot metal when he switched to pot metal on all his tops around the beginning of 1911. He also made four minute recorder tops of pot metal. The four minute recorder was colored green to identify it with the four minute records. What is extremely interesting is Edison then made brass tops with the words Sold by Thomas A Edison Inc. All of the other tops from other reproducers with TAE on them are made of pot metal. 528737 is a pot metal Nat’l Phono in the 530’s were still pot metal as Edison always had overlap, but most of the 530’s and 540’s are brass, the highest I have seen is 580007 but the photo was too poor to tell. In the early 500,000 range Edison when to pot metal and the brass TAE tops have a higher serial number. I have seen many four minute brass top recorders and own several two and four minute recorder brass tops with TAE on them. Edison changed from Nat’l Phono to TAE in 1911. In 1913 Edison made recorders with A in front of the serial numbers that were made from a different casting and are pot metal again. I will eventually record the serial numbers I have on these. Edison sold both two and four minute recorders until the factory fire destroyed existing stocks and I believe he made some after the fire. Below are actual serial number details. From the dated boxes I have it appears Edison made the switch to the A serial numbers in 1913 and went to the B serial numbers after the fire. According to Frow the 2 minute recorder was only made up until 1912, which is incorrect. The 4 minute recorder has a new style of stylus holder. I have found two 2 minute recorders with the new style of stylus holder with their original boxes. My theory is that the two minute recorder was upgraded with the new type of stylus holder as I have a two minute recorder in its original box that has the new type of stylus holder. It is a plain two minute box. I have a 2 minute recorder box from 1913 (A3426) and it says (two minute) in parenthesis and the four minute recorder boxes I have say (four minute) in parenthesis and are from 1912 on so the made both recorders at the same time. The latest style of these recorders have a new style of top and an A serial number. The very latest ones just say RECORDER on them. The earliest improved recorder of 1901 with its C style top has an aluminum stylus holder with two narrow strips at the end, these strips were double in size, then later they are the same shape as the copper ones. The later ones are made of copper; some of these are nickel plated. The first new style recorder has an aluminum stylus holder that is a tube with arms to hold the stylus end. By 147632 the aluminum stylus holder was in the more familiar shape. 10300 has the early holder. Then around 1910 the stylus holder was improved, and the four minute recorder was used the improved stylus holder when it came out. I believe in 1913 Edison went to a new top with large serial numbers like the business recorders. The early ones have all the lettering and the latest one I have seen A9727 only has the word recorder on it. This is interesting because the recorder serial number never went over 600,000 but Edison started it over with the A as he did the large top N and these never went over 74,000, 72310 is the highest I have seen. I think Edison stopped the large top serial number around 74000 and went to the A series because of the factory fire, A350 is the highest large top A serial number I have seen. The recorder was stopped early (before getting to serial number 999999) to go to the A series. I believe he started with the A series recorders because of the falling sales in 1913. I believe he started the C series after the fire for the C and H. The first C serial number small tops were pot metal, the later and last ones were brass. 4 minute recorders 528737 and 532183 are pot metal with Nat'l Phono on it. 536905 and 540217 are brass top 4 minute recorders with Thomas A Edison Inc on them and 542228 is also a brass TAE top and was a 4 minute recorder, its original cutter bar was lost and it has a four minute cutter in another non Edison bar. 508232 is a regular pot metal top 2 minute recorder while 527217 is a pot metal top 2 minute recorder with the new style of cutter bar that looks like the four minute. I have the original box and it is the late recorder box, it has the last patent date of Oct. 17, 1905 on it. A3426 is a 2 minute recorder with its original box and the box has in parenthesis (two minute) on it. The actual recorder had a pot metal top and the top was replaced with a brass one, but the late style bottom was still there. Edison went back to brass because A 10068 has the original brass top with no lettering. On the small top reproducers I believe he started the C series after the fire as I have never seen a small top above B99,999. The first C series small tops were pot metal with all the lettering, the later and last ones were brass and had no lettering on them. I have seen photos of two and know of three model C reproducers with brass tops and no lettering. Photos of Model C serial number C18777 are sent on request. Both of these have nickel plated brass diaphragms and cork gaskets. Edison went to cork around 1924 according to Ron Dethlefson. According to Ron the Edison Company still sold diamond disc reproducer parts after 1929 and even made aluminum diaphragms after the rice paper ones ran out so I think Edison provided the earlier cylinder reproducers after the fire. 407167 Nat'l brass top Pot metal tops: A 272 has all the lettering and the regular serial number is on the rim around the sound tube. A 929 has all the lettering and the larger serial number under the word RECORDER. A 8934 top has no lettering and the larger serial number under the word RECORDER. Late two minute with brass top: A 10068 top has no lettering at all and the larger serial number.
B952 Latest four minute recorder has Recorder and serial number on it. The top has a different type of green coloring on it. Beginning with the A tops the material used for the coloring appears to have changed. It almost appears plated on.
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