Standard A motor not running with belt

[nedt]

Hello, this is a great site with a wealth of knowledge and enthusiasm. This is my first post of many that will follow..

I wanted to get your thoughts on the following issue. On a Standard A, the motor will not run when the belt is attached to the pulley. I've tried increasing the tension and loosing the tension. When I remove the belt, the governor/motor spins like normal when lever is turned on, but as soon as the belt is attached, it will stop. Now for full disclosure, I am using a rubber o ring belt (not a leather belt), but I've gotten them same type of rubber belt to work just fine on a combination D machine and an Amberola 30 (of course the belts are different sizes but same material).
If I turn the Mandrel with my hand it really doesn't make a difference either.

Any thoughts on what I should focus on to correct this? Is it maybe a lubrication issue somewhere? I just acquired the machine a couple of weeks ago and have not thoroughly lubricated all the parts, but I did dab some drops of oil on most of the gears that I can easily get to without disassembling anything. I also had to use the governor that was in my combination D machine in this machine. Fyi, the A is NOT the square box model. Could this be the issue??

Thank you in advance...

[lucius1958]

First of all: if you have not thoroughly cleaned the motor and upper works, you should do that now. 110+ year-old oil and grease residue have a definite effect on performance.

I am not sure whether there is a significant difference in governor design between the A and the D; but it would be a good idea to get an appropriate governor from a good dealer.

You might also get some proper leather belting for the machine.

Another factor may be adjustments in the upper works: too tight setting of the bearings; bad adjustment of the half nut, etc.

BillS

[martinola]

Hi nedt!
I'll reinforce what Bill was saying; a good clean and lube will help. Standards are robust machines for their size but depend on everything turning freely to operate well. With the belt off give the mandrel a spin. Does the gear train seem free and coast a bit - or does it come to a stop 1 or 2 turns later? I would get some leather belting from ebay or one of the parts dealers and lose the rubber belt. You want the belt to be tight enough to turn the mandrel without slipping but loose enough to move a 1/2 turn or so when you stop the mandrel by grabbing it.

The governor from the D should work, but it sounds like you'll need to get another one at some point if you want both machines to be operable. I'd try to get a proper one for the model A at that point. Installed, the governor should have a bit of end play in the bearings. The belt tensioner should turn freely. If the lower gear cluster is all gunked-up or mis-aligned it will also rob you of power. If you disassemble the lower works for cleaning or governor replacement, it's important to let the motor run all the way down.

I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

Best Regards,
Martin

[nedt]

OK thank you Bill and Martin.. I plan on thoroughly cleaning and lubing the Machine this weekend, and I just receive so

me leather belting in the mail today. Do I literally need to take apart the gears underneath to lube them, or can I just Dab Oil on all the metal parts?

[lucius1958]

If you have disassembled and cleaned the motor, you can apply lubrication to the gears and bearings with an oil can after reassembly. Just don't get oil on the belt or pulleys.

The governor disc and shaft should also get a little lubrication.

BillS

[nedt]

Hello,
checking back in here.. The A machine is working fine!!!

regarding the Standard D machine, I have done the following..
1. disassembled all gears and cleaned/lubed all parts
2. cleaned and lubed feed screw and half nut
3. replaced mandrel bearing with new brass part (and oiled)
4. replaced belt with new leather belt

Here are the issues..
1. When I crank the machine and turn the lever to on, the machine will start running with very good rotation and it is quiet. after a minute or 2, if I stop the machine, and start it again, it will not spin. If I manually spin the governor, or tun the mandrel just a little, the machine will begin to spin and get up to normal speed. It only seems to work properly when I use the on/off switch for the first few times when the machine is fully wound.. after that I have to give it a manual push and then it goes!! This is all with no cylinder on the mandrel!!

2. when I attempt to play a cylinder, the machine comes to a stop seconds after the reproducer is lowered.. I have read a few other threads on this... and as mentioned earlier, I cleaned and oiled the feed screw and half nut, and I have also tried to loosen/tighten the screws on the half nut as well as bend the half nut in and out... Numerous different scenarios, The same thing still happens.. If i just lower the carriage with the guide screw resting on the edge ( i think you call that knife edge where the Edison signature is), the carriage will move down the length of the cylinder while it is spinning, no problem. But as soon as I lower it further so the stylus hits the cylinder, it drags to a stop.

I will be happy to demonstrate in a youtube video if that is more helpful.. Any thought here on both of these issues?

Thank you in advance..

[lucius1958]

If everything else is working properly on the Model D, I would suggest a couple of options:

. Check the adjustment on the governor bearings: there should be just the *tiniest* bit of end play.

. Check the tension on the belt: if it is a little too tight, that might interfere with free running.

Tell us how you fare with those.

BillS

[phonogfp]

"If i just lower the carriage with the guide screw resting on the edge ( i think you call that knife edge where the Edison signature is), the carriage will move down the length of the cylinder while it is spinning, no problem. But as soon as I lower it further so the stylus hits the cylinder, it drags to a stop."

If you have the half nut bar adjusted so that the carriage IS PROPELLED when its pin is pushed in (riding on the straight-edge/knife-edge), it's no wonder. The half nut bar should be adjusted so that it engages ONLY when the carriage pin is pulled out and the carriage itself rests upon the straight-edge/knife-edge.

George P.

[nedt]

Thanks George.. I made that adjustment and I still have the same issue.. the half nut only engages when the pen is pulled out and the carriage is resting on the edge. I even put a little oIL on the edge??

I'm getting a lot of shavings on the cylinder itself... is that normal? I am using a black 2 min cylinder and the gear on the machine is positioned for 2 min..

Also any other thoughts on why machine will only start when I manually give it a spin?

I have several issues!!! Thnx

[martinola]

Ned, you should only get shavings if you are recording. What kind of reproducer are you using? Posting a photo or two would be a great help.

Regards,
Martin

[phonogfp]

Shavings on the cylinder itself are definitely NOT normal. You're destroying the record by attempting to play it before the machine is in proper adjustment. You don't mention which type of reproducer you're using, and that can be a problem if you're using the wrong one for a wax 2 minute cylinder. Also - if you switched out the Standard D half nut, you should know that half nuts from an A, B, or C are not compatible. There's a lot that can go wrong if these machines are disassembled by novices (not necessarily you, but perhaps someone before you obtained the machine).

I have two recommendations for you:

1: Post photos of your Standard D (with the gear cover removed) from all angles on the Talking Machine Forum:
forum.talkingmachine.info/
That web site makes it easy (it hosts photos), and the images are large. If there's anything obviously out of whack, someone will pick up on it. An image speaks a thousand words, and trying to diagnose a problem(s) with words is not efficient.

2: Read this article on the Antique Phonograph Society web site:
www.antiquephono.org/basic-antique-phonograph-operational-tips/
It will show you which reproducers are appropriate for 2 minute wax cylinders, and show you lots of other stuff as well. It may or may not help with your Standard D, but it certainly can't so any harm.

I'll be looking forward to seeing your photos on the Talking Machine Forum.
Good luck!
George P.

[nedt]

Will get some photos together shortly.. I can not post photos in this forum correct?

I did get the link that you sent for the other forum George, thanks.

I have not switched anything out on this D, as I just received it, but possibly the person that owned this machine before me did. But I will get some photos up to hopefully get to the bottom of this.

[nedt]

Ok so I was able to compare my reproducer to other photos of Standard D reproducers online and I definitely do not seem to have the correct one.  
The best way to describe this is that my reproducer looks just like the Diamond  B reproducer (it does not have a model number clearly listed on it), and the carriage is constructed to hold this type of reproducer..  

this is not my photo, but it looks like this...   www.antiquephono.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/b20.jpg

When I look online at other standard D machines, I see reproducers that look more like C's, and the carriage has a full circle where the reproducer sits (whereas mine has the opening in the front for the tip of the reproducer to stick out)

Were any D machines made to use this type of reproducer, or is it clear that the previous owner switched this out?  

This would mean that I need a new carriage arm and reproducer in order for my Standard D to work properly??

[phonogfp]

Ouch! I was afraid of that. The Diamond B Reproducer was designed to play 4 minute celluloid cylinders only.

Many Standard Ds were converted in 1912 and for years afterward by dealers to play the Blue Amberol (4 minute celluloid) cylinders, and yours might well have been among them. (I have a Home D that was so converted). It's a perfectly legitimate conversion and allows the machine to play the Blue Amberols, which are far more durable than wax cylinders and easily found today. There's no reason to change it unless you don't like 4 minute celluloid cylinders.

George P.

[lucius1958]

Oct 22, 2016 11:00:25 GMT -5 nedt said:

Will get some photos together shortly.. I can not post photos in this forum correct?

If you're a member, you should be able to post photos.

BillS