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Post by maroongem on Nov 19, 2008 12:21:14 GMT -5
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Post by MordEth on Nov 19, 2008 13:10:53 GMT -5
Bill, To the best of my knowledge (and perhaps someone who knows more about this could state definitively) the Re-Creation paper label was used transitionally from mid-1921 to 1922; I’m not sure if they issued any of this version of the label in 1922, but (I think) it’s theoretically possible. To my eye it doesn’t look Photoshopped; if someone were to try to Photoshop this, I think that they’d go to the trouble of making the font look authentic, like so: I think that it looks like it very well could have been a copied label that some dealer used a typewriter to add the side info, but I could be wrong. Comparing Edison’s coat seems to suggest that it is a knockoff vs. a scan or photocopy. Still, it’s hard to tell from that photograph. If it’s a Photoshopped label, they did a good job on the edge, the wear to the side info, and put some effort into selecting the typewriter font. I have 128 different ‘typewriter’ fonts, but none look exactly like typeface on the label. Maybe I need to find some more.  Edison’s paper labels would be pretty easy to Photoshop, though. I think the hard part would be coming up with paper, so they would look authentic when printed. — MordEth |
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Post by maroongem on Nov 20, 2008 10:38:32 GMT -5
Sorry for any confusion in my original post Mordeth but what I actually thought was removed was in the lower oval cartouche where the matrix number is printed. There appears to be two different colors of white (perhaps white-out if not removed by a program) if you look closely. Also, the outer most white ring is also missing (thus the brown under label showing). I have over 400 DDs with most of them being the various types of Edison's paper labels, and the few dozen I flipped through had the outer most ring present.
Would a dealer of the time reproduce a copyrighted label? I have a hard time believing one would. Not to mention the overall wear to the label & spindle hole looks a bit too pristine to me.
Bill
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Post by billcahill on Nov 20, 2008 12:14:37 GMT -5
Some years ago there were reproduction labels made of the Edison DD label. The difference is they were done on plain white paper, while the originals tended to be a slick paper that was semi gloss.
If this is an old repro., they likely used a regular typewriter to type the info.
Judging from other repro. stuff made, they may have made many mistakes making that label.
It amazes me how many modern dealers, and, collectors look at one horrible early style repro. made 35 years ago, or, so, that has no patent information, no company name, don't even say made by Nat'l Phonograph co., and, the deliberately put on "corosion", and, call those "originals".
They aren't. They are poorly made repros.
Bill Cahill
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Post by MordEth on Nov 20, 2008 12:14:35 GMT -5
Bill, I sent the seller an e-mail asking if they could provide a high-resolution scan or photo of the label; at the resolution they posted (which I saved and am hosting to include above) it’s really difficult to give a definitive answer as to whether this label was Photoshopped or not. I didn’t think that Edison usually cut the label that closely, but it didn’t occur to me that I don’t remember seeing many that did not have an unprinted white ring around the outside of the label. The seller just replied to me with this: I did not get a new image from the seller. At the moment, I’m leaning towards believing that it was a photocopy of an original label, which was altered with whiteout or something similar, mostly based on the loss of detail on Edison’s coat. — MordEth |
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Post by billcahill on Nov 20, 2008 12:25:20 GMT -5
Another thing. I have the recently published book on Edison DD records. In there it talks about special records produced for indivitual companies, etc... Most were assumed done on black label, or, etched, but, not all. All tended to be single sided.
It would be difficult to make are repro. record, as the material isn't lacquer, and, the process was difficult.
I believe in that boook they show a picture of some of the equipment used at the factory for creating DD records, including a still working giant baking oven.
Bill Cahill
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Post by MordEth on Nov 20, 2008 12:33:22 GMT -5
Bill (Cahill, it’s slightly ironic that other than myself, both posters are named Bill), You’re probably right about it being a cheap reproduction, but to the best of my knowledge, they did fairly well for this particular label; are there versions that have anything more than “Made in U.S.A” (pictured above) on them? I haven’t looked at enough of this variant of the Edison label to say for sure, but I don’t remember seeing patent information, etc. on this one. Of course, with anything, sooner or later you’ll get self-styled experts who will make all sorts of misguided comments on the authenticity of things. This is why they have professional grading services for coins, etc. Still...it’s kind of an interesting eBay find to discuss. Thanks for pointing it out, Bill (maroongem). I’m kind of tempted to make Edison label reproductions, now. Certainly, I could create ones that come far closer to the authentic label. Anyone need replacement labels for any of their Diamond Discs? ;D — MordEth |
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Post by billcahill on Nov 20, 2008 13:16:19 GMT -5
;DActually, yes. I do need a few.
By the way, I forgot to mention that any recordings that were specially made didn't have a matrix no.
Also, NO, I'm not sure how many repros. were made of that label, but, I've seen nothing about patents on them.
Only lack of that on reproduction reproducers.
About 25 years ago, some one got smart, and, made an absolutely perfect reprocuction Edison reproducer.
You can't tell them apart, except for the obviously new box they came in.
There is only one company, to my knowledge, to this day that makes a decent reprocuction of the Diamond needles made for the Edison reproducers, and, they are sold by Dennis, and Patti Valente, of Apsco, in NY.
Antique Phonograph Supply Company.
They aren't cheap, but, they are good.
I had to buy a new diamond for my Amberola 111 15 years ago, and, I'm still very happy with it.....
Bill Cahill
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Post by maroongem on Nov 21, 2008 1:38:19 GMT -5
I checked a few of my paper labeled DDS, and the only reference I could find stating anything about the U.S.A. is on a Re-Creation.
Over the lower cartouche that held the matrix number was written "Price $2.00 In The U.S.A." this was a cursory look-through and I'll check more when I get a few minutes.
To Bill Cahill regarding the diamond styli for the DDS and Amberolas, I assume you are referring to Expert Stylus in England. Ron Sitko also sells those as well as APSCO. I have heard mixed revues on them but fortunately I've never had a problem with them.
There is a fellow that recently published a 2 volume set of all (I believe) of the Edison DD paper labels, both R-L sides. The set is rather pricey @ around $300.00 plus shipping. I don't recall his info off the top of my head, but can supply it in the a.m. when I can look for it.
Which reproducer(s) are you referring to Bill? I've seen repros for the wax cylinder machines made in both India and GB, and the Brit ones are flawless, all they lack is the serial number stamped on the flat by the output tube. The ones made in India, well..................they do work but the casting leaves a little to be desired.
Bill
BTW, I was never doubting the content of the record or if it was pressed by the Edison factory as I have seen or owned a few of these "special" pressings. It was merely the label that I had problems with.
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Post by matty on Nov 21, 2008 4:55:06 GMT -5
I just went through mine, and found about 6 with "Price $1.00 in the USA" between no.50726 & 51213. These are all on the Edison Record label except one- 51005, which is on the Edison Recreation label.
I only have one with "price $1.50 in the USA" on the Edison Record label- no.80505.
The first record in my collection to have "Made in USA" is 51783 & the last 51832. Then they revert back to having nothing above the matrix number until I reach the electrics, which all have Made in USA.
I'm guessing "Made in USA" was added early in the electric era, and those I have on acoustic records are later repressings of earlier material.
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Post by MordEth on Nov 21, 2008 6:48:55 GMT -5
;D Actually, yes. I do need a few. Send me a list of the ones you need (ideally with all of the information that would appear on the side) and I’ll get on it when I wrap up a few for-profit projects I’m working on currently. The nice thing about something like this; once you’ve done one of a particular label, the rest of them just involve changing the text, which is very simple and takes little time. If you have a decent printer (or access to a copy shop), I can give you PDFs, which is the most printer-friendly solution. A copy shop is likely to have a paper similar to the Edison labels (assuming you have a copy shop near you), and would most likely be one of the cheapest solutions for printing custom labels, although you might find decent inkjet paper with suitable weight as well. In the past I’ve had good luck with Kinko’s (which is apparently now owned by FedEx), and they’re pretty reasonable as far as pricing. Plus, since they’re only printed with black ink (unless you want to do some of the star variants, which would also use red), you don’t have to pay for color copying. I usually favor matte photo paper for any printed materials (with my Canon inkjet, which has served me quite well), but it doesn’t have quite the same surface as the Edison paper labels. Still, it’s a pretty inexpensive solution (~ $15 for 50 sheets, a bit cheaper if you buy in larger quantities), and you might look at some of the other finishes (perhaps satin?). — MordEth |
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Post by maroongem on Nov 21, 2008 11:53:49 GMT -5
OK, The info for the Edison Record volumes that I mentioned earlier is a four volume set in cronological order from 1912-1929. Total pages, 1,402; 5,050 different Edison paper labels from the popular series: 977 Edison recording artist visual illustrations; 282 Edison diamond disc machine visual illustrations; 135 different Edison Record monthly supplements; and complete dating guide from recording studio cash book entries. $199.00 plus $9.00 shipping & insurance.
Charles Gregory, 17697 Palmer, Melvindale MI 48122, 1-313-389-2836.
I may have to ask Santa for this!! ;D
Bill
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Post by billcahill on Nov 21, 2008 15:19:41 GMT -5
Thanks, but, my printer died. I'll have to wait. No printing shops within 20 miles, and, I don't drive...
The repros I'm talking about were made in the USA about 30 years ago.... Then, some later perfect ones had a serial no on them....
I was referring to APSCO, and, yes, it's that guy in Brittain. I've had very excellent luck with the diamond needles, even though pricey...
Yes, I'm referring to the following reproduction reproducers.
C 2 min.
H 4 min.
K 2, 4 min. combination.
Bill Cahill
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Post by bobacker on Oct 13, 2009 9:17:19 GMT -5
I have a lot of these old edison records, that I brought from eBay, and many of them have missing their Label. I was thinking of making a few of them, so I, know what song they are. I know someone will be able tell they were copy made but, let put in so many word, if you were a record , kept in bad environment, being neglect, all those years, and paper don't last on anything too long. What can do?  |
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