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Post by lukewarmwater on May 29, 2007 4:31:24 GMT -5
I agree that eBay has impacted everything, and so did the advent of antique malls in the mid-1970's (I remember thinking, "This is crazy . . . how can you not haggle with the dealer?"). But still, even the stuff on eBay has to come from somewhere! I don't find stuff in the sheer volume I did 30 years ago, but I still find stuff frquently enough to keep me looking. Luke W
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Post by maroongem on May 29, 2007 4:39:30 GMT -5
True Luke. I still look and as a matter of fact I found two decent BAs in an antique mall over the weekend in Maine for a respectable $4.95 per! There were other cylinders there but the 2M wax were mouldy and the other BAs were either uninteresting or already owned by me. Not a machine in sight, though!!!
Bill
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 5:31:07 GMT -5
I have the same problem finding moldy 2 min wax cylinders myself, Bill. Although I have gotten lucky finding machines, but usually they are a bit pricey. I have found two more DD's floor model machines, and three more cylinder machines, which were a bit pricey as well. Antique Malls, became away for a person to become an antique dealer, without having to deal with the public. A person can rent a booth, and put stuff in there to sell, but let the Mall sell the items for them, and give the profit to the dealer.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 10:21:11 GMT -5
Bill, you mentioned something about a Model B reporducer? Where many of these made? So far, I have only one found on ebay, listed for $214.00. Too me, it would be a bit much to spend this amount or a reporducer, and then sepnd $125.00 on just a few brown wax cylinders. This would total to, $339.00, just to play 8 cylinders, whihc I would not play much anyways. If this is the case, then I can not see justifying, buy the cylinders in the frist place. If on the off chance, I find a Model B reproducer, for a lot less, or a reasonabley priced machine to play them, then yes I could justify buying the brown wax cylinders.
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Post by maroongem on May 29, 2007 11:54:50 GMT -5
Paul,
Unfortunately, I can't give you a total of how many were made, but they aren't super rare. They were around for approx. 4 years and are found frequently on the early Gems. As I said earlier, you can play the brownies with your C, just don't over do it.
Bill
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Post by gramophoneshane on May 29, 2007 13:31:20 GMT -5
Depending on the cylinders, it might be worth your while to buy them, and resell them on ebay too. You can always get them, and if you find they're not to your taste, chances are you'll recoop your money and then some. The box is probably worth at least half the asking price. As long as all the cylinders are in good condition, I don't think you could go wrong with them. You could probably find someone here or on the other board, that would be willing to do a swap for quite a few more black wax cylinders in good playable condition too?? They're really something you won't find very often.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2007 16:53:32 GMT -5
Thanks, for the help guys!
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steve
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Post by steve on May 29, 2007 19:14:02 GMT -5
Hi Paul,
There are at least five different types of the B reproducer from the early armed one that replaced the automatic to the later one with the pot metal weight that was found on the Gem. In 1900 Edison began to make molded records and he used these for masters, that is why the later automatic has a heavier weight. Below is a brief history of the reproducer up to the B. Any corrections or suggestions are appreciated and I can provide photos of the reproducers or the catalog page.
The standard speaker had both recording and playing stylus, but it did not track very well as it had no lateral play so Edison created the automatic reproducer which was able to track automatically and did not require any adjustment as it was playing. The automatic reproducer also has a heavier weight which gave more volume. When you are adjusting a standard speaker the volume will become louder, but at the same time the cutting stylus will contact the record as you continue to adjust. I rebuilt one of these for a friend and was able to make a recording with it, so this comes from actual experience.
Edison increased the weight on the automatic as he began to make molded records in 1900, at first he used them as masters, then he began stocking them for the 1902 release date. The Concert book Pg 46 Miller testified molten wax plant began production in the fall of 1900, by Feb 1901 daily production was 2000. Because of reproducers I have found on eBay, all I have seen and my 1901 standard with the transitional reproducer I now have a pretty good idea of how the model B went. My standard model A is a pre Oct 1901 one that still has the carriage that has the two clips and no centering pin. In 1900 Edison improved the automatic by adding a hinge block and limit loop. I have seen two of these, one with a serial number of 207352, the other was 208xxx . Next Edison began to develop an all-new top that was domed. By 1901 he took the new 1900 automatic bottom and placed it on the new domed C style top and created the early B. Around February 1902 by around serial number 18000 the early B reproducer had the centering notch in it and by 43000 he called it the model B since in February 1902 he announced the model C. 69337 still had the same brass weight with the Model B on the bottom. Edison continued to develop the Model B reproducer until finally it had the heavy pot metal weight. I believe that Edison used the Model B reproducer on the Gem as it cost less to produce and sounded better than the earlier Gem reproducers. The Gem always had a cheaper reproducer until it was equipped with the Model C in Oct. 1 1905. One idea that sounds good is that Edison used the Gem to have a reproducer that would allow him to get rid of all the ball styli he had. Edison never wasted and this sounds very likely to me.
According to a 1903 Edison catalog:
‘This (B) reproducer has a crystal diaphragm and a ball-shaped sapphire. It is used only on the Edison Gem phonograph. It was formerly known as the Automatic, and up to February 1, 1902, was in use on all Edison phonographs except the Gem.’ This confirms to me that Edison used the early B as a replacement for the automatic and indicates he called it the automatic when it was first developed as the difference between the last automatic and the early B was only the new improved top.
As for my dates:
The model C was developed in 1901, Concert Book Pg 54 "Under date of January 6, 1902 ... we handed and shipped one Model C reproducer". This makes me think that the automatic was improved in 1900 and the transitional was developed in 1900 as it was released in 1901. I think Edison may have gotten the idea of the hanging weight from Mobley. If anyone has info about Mobley let me know, Mobley made improvements on the automatic and early B and Edison took Mobley to court, but later Edison incorporated these improvements, a hanging weight and domed top.
I can provide photos of the early thin weight automatic and the later thick weight one and the automatic with the hinge block and limit loop.
Steve reproducer nut
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 4:23:20 GMT -5
WOW! Thanks for that little bit of trivia, I really apprerciate it.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 13:37:31 GMT -5
Hi Guys, well I did by the cylinders, for the most part some in fairly good condition, and a couple are not. One cylinder has a crack running the length of the cylinder, another has sever nic in it. A few are shoiwning some whit spots, that could be mold. I have one that looks in great shape, but I have not tried it out yet. I got 11 cylinders, plus the box, for $132.00. I'm not sure if I will play them, but they are nice examples of early brown wax cylinders.
The listing on the lid:
1. Heimweh Aus Odenmhdo 2. Birthday Speech 3. Winefass 4. Farewell Lovers 5. Home Sweet Home 6. Silver Wedding Schulzes 7 and 8 are hard to make out, do too the paper having some holes in them.
The cylinders are wraped in Lambs Wool? Which was starting to stick to the cylinders, that are wraped. The box for the most part is in good shape, but ther is no decal or anyhting, telling me who made them. Despite a few flaws, they are good examples of early wax cylinders.
Is there a way to maintain them, and try to stop anymore damge, from mold. I know the one that is cracked is a gonner, and the one with the nic, lost part of the recording. Any help or advice would be appreciated. I am going to keep them in the box though, for safe keeping.
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Post by lukewarmwater on May 30, 2007 17:50:03 GMT -5
Mike Khanchalian -- "The Cylinder Doctor" -- is a dentist and phono collector who can repair damaged brown wax cylinders using dental techniques. Here's his email addy, and he'll be at Union: mfkhanchalian@altrionet.com. Mike is a great guy and a dear friend. Congratulations on your score! Brown wax cylinder cases won't have a decal, but the announcements at the beginning of the recording are the identifier. Luke W
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 18:02:40 GMT -5
Thanks Luke! I didn't think those cylinders could be repaired? I figured once they were damaged, or cracked, that was the end of the cylinder.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 18:49:13 GMT -5
Okay, I played two of the cylinders, and they do play. However, as I played the second cylinder, it started to slide off of the mandrel, so I stopped it. I could be wrong, but these might be home recorded cylinders, and not one's recorded by Edison, or Columbia. Only, becuse the first cylinder, did not have an anouncement at the begining. To be on the safe side, I am going to refrain from playing them. Only because they are wax, and are very fragile, and I do not , want to risk, further damage. I do plan on keeping them, as they are a nice example, of early home recorded music, plus they are a nice example of eraly cylinders. (Sorry to disapoint anyone, who would like to buy them, but they are not for sale.)
Anyway, I want to thank everyone for their help, and great advice. I really appericate it very much. The wax cylinders are nice, even the Gold Moulded one's, but they are prone to mold, and can break easily. On the bright side, I know I can buy new cylinders from Peter Dilg, at Baldwin Antique Center, so I still can buy cylinders, even though they aren't Edison one's. Peter has done a great thing, to collectors of cylinder machines, in manufactureing new cylinders, with old recordings. That are not prone to damage, and will last a lifetime.
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Post by gramophoneshane on May 30, 2007 20:32:54 GMT -5
I'm glad you got to buy them Paul. Even if they are home recordings, you've still done alright. What was the volume of the ones you played like. Every home recording I've bought, has been very low in volume. The only ones that come close to the volume of a factory recording, are the ones i've done myself using Bills "heat the cylinder with a lamp" advise (Thanks again Bill!) I don't think you'll damage them by playing them occasionally. I have now decided to only play my on cold days, just so the wax is that little bit harder. I actually think playing any wax cylinder occasionally can help reduce the risk of mold forming- I've noticed the records I play often, have never gone moldy, but the ones that I haven't played for years tend to get a spotty surface that looks like the early sages of mold damage. Evn if they are home recordings, it sounds like you've got some interesting titles there. What was on the one you played? Music or singing, talking or what?
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2007 5:54:45 GMT -5
They were fairly loud, but not as loud as an Edsion. They were both singing, but I could not tell you what they were, they were a little inaudiable, but that might be because of the reproducer, because I used a Model C, since I do not have a model B. Fortuneatly, I have AC, so I have a lesser chance of mold forming, and in the winter, I keep my heat low, so it does not get overly hot.
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