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Post by bofusmosby on Nov 1, 2010 23:41:39 GMT -5
Greetings all. A friend of mine just gave me this phonograph, and I have a couple of questions for you pros on here.
1 I have a bad needle and am wondering where can I find a source for these, and how are they replaced? The needle is definately bad. There is no needle point, it is worn completely smooth. No doubt about it.
2 On the left side of the platter, there are 2 buttons with the numbers 10 & 12 on them. I am assuming that these are for the record size. OK, if so, then what are their purpose? Looking from the front with the grille removed, it doesn't appear that they are connected to anything. They press against nothing. Doesn't it sound like there is an assembly, or at least something missing? If so, does anyone have what I need for this phonograph?
I have had an early Victrola for many years, but this Edison looks to be a lot more complicated. Its like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Corvette. It looks like it is going to be a lot of fun getting into this unit.
Also, the finish is messed up real bad on the top, so unfortunately, I really have no choice on having to refinish at least the top. This is the Mahogony finish, so what was actually used on the finish from the factory. Shellac? Varnish? I want to do the job correct for the time period.
Any and all assistance you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
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Post by coyote on Nov 2, 2010 2:14:21 GMT -5
Others can advise better than I can about the cabinet finish, so I'll leave that to someone else! New needles are available at a variety of phono suppliers (APSCO comes to mind: www.antiquephono.com/edisect.htm). Suppliers are pretty uniform in pricing, about $125. The needle bars can be difficult to install. You can also buy a new reproducer head on eBay and hope it has a good diamond, or send it for repair, as it would probably benefit from new gaskets, rear hinge lubrication, etc. as well. People who do this work are listed in other threads, or others can make recommendations (George Vollema www.worldofgramophones.com/repairgeorge.html, et al.) Threads on this board and others also cover various aspects of rebuilding a Diamond Disc reproducer if you'd rather undertake it yourself. If you can't find related topics, a number of members will certainly guide you through it. Many later Diamond Disc models (including your Baby Console) were equipped with the buttons for 10 and 12 inch disc sizes, but NOT equipped with long-play gearing. The long-play records were short-lived in the 10" size, and I don't think the proposed 12 inch Diamond Discs ever materialized. To use the buttons, hold one down as you move the reproducer towards the record. It will hit a stop (thunk!) when it is over the approximate position of the start of a 10 or 12" record. Yep, big deal. That's all these buttons do. As a side note, I'm sure you know not to play Diamond Discs with a steel needle on a non-Edison machine, and playing "regular" records (non-Diamond Discs) on an Edison machine requires a special aftermarket adapter. Just thought I'd mention it! Good luck! |
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Post by bofusmosby on Nov 2, 2010 6:53:16 GMT -5
coyote
Thank you for your response. You also answered a question I hadn't asked, but wanted to. LOL I have NOT tried to play any of the Edison records on my Victrola yet, so now I know not to do this. Thank you! Along with the Edison phonograph, were about 30 of the Edison records. As far as an adaptor goes, there is an adaptor that came with the machine, and the part that connects to the arm was stuck. I was finally able to remove this piece, and by the looks of it, it doesn't appear that it really belongs on this phonograph. It was just jammed into the arm, not fastened there in any way. I think I'll just go for either the needle or maybe a used reproducer with a good needle. I did see some for sale on ebay, but you're right about the needle. If it is bad, then I have just waisted my money. Due to the economy, I am working on a shoe-string budget right now, so I guess I need to wait for the best deal.
My wife wants me to refinish the entire cabinet. I know that with any antique, the more original, the better. My question is, because this appears to be a low-priced, low value phonograph, would this phonograph really be valuable enough to keep the original finish on part of it, while having to refinish the top? It might be impossible for me to match the top with the rest of the cabinet. This might make it look even worse. Please,. I'd like some opinions on this.
Thank you!
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Post by martinola on Nov 2, 2010 9:00:02 GMT -5
Hi There! Welcome to the board. If you post some photos of your machine, the rest of us can get a better idea of what you're up against. Sometimes a finish can look really awful, but be relatively easy to salvage. I think I'm correct in saying that most Edison machines (at least up to 1925) were finished in shellac. Sometimes cracked and crazed shellac can be re-amalgamated by brushing on alcohol and letting the finish re-flow. I'd suggest you get yourself a copy of "The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric Reiss. Excellent book with many "how-to" descriptions and photos. I'd recommend refinishing only the top (if you have to) and just spend some time matching the color. If you stain in light successive passes, you'll have better control of the final color. Trust your eyes and not what color the stain can says. As a kid I refinished a Mahogany machine with reddish stain because the label on the can said "Mahogany", rather than a color that would have matched better. I know it sounds dumb now, but I really thought the paint manufacturer knew better. The other real value to refinishing only the top is that it will be a whole lot less work. If worse comes to worse, you can always re-do the whole thing at a future time. Search this and the other boards about cleaning old finishes, reamalgamation and refinishing and I think you'll be able to see some other examples of salvaged finishes. In any case, good luck and welcome to the insanity of old phonographs.  Martin |
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Post by bofusmosby on Nov 2, 2010 10:09:26 GMT -5
Martin, thank you for the welcome, and the words of wisdom. The reason why the top needs to be refinished is first, there are light areas on top where something was set on it years ago. Also, the guy that gave this phonograph to me had sanded an area of the top down to bare wood. He had told me that the cabinet finish was real bad, but I disagree with that. Except for the top, I believe that the original finish looks great. No aligatoring, or crazing of the shellac or anything. I am on my luch hour right now, and I don't have the time, but tonight I'll take some photos and post them here.
Thank you for your reply!
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Post by coyote on Nov 2, 2010 12:05:00 GMT -5
As you surmised, this isn't a highly valuable machine. This model is pretty common, and consoles in general are less collectible than other machines, so it wouldn't be a huge travesty to refinish. I suspect you're right and would have a lot of trial-and-error in matching the rest of the finish if you just did the top. Eric Reiss's "The Compleat Talking Machine" has a good section on refinishing. If you don't already have the book, it's great for outlining the basics of restoration of a variety of machines. As for the "why" of not playing Diamond Discs with a steel needle: a steel needle will cut right through the "condensite" layer on a Diamond Disc, leaving damaged "brown" grooves. If you see any brown grooves on your DDs, this is most likely what has happened in the past. A really bad diamond can do the same thing. Regarding the stylus on a budget, the cheapest way to go is probably just investing in a new needle bar (and gaskets) when you have the funds. If you're careful, you can replace it yourself with some pointers and the right tools. First check to make sure that the "string" linkage that connects the needle bar to the diaphragm is intact and not "pulled out" of the diaphragm, otherwise you'll need a diaphragm with linkage as well. The reproducers on eBay are too hit-and-miss, and odds are high you'd be wasting your money as you stated. As far as mechanics, I'll refer you to the Diamond Disc service manual posted on another phonograph board: forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=476This board also has several topics covering refinishing and the like; check it out! |
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Post by maroongem on Nov 2, 2010 16:41:18 GMT -5
Jim,
Where your machine has the 10-12 shift buttons, your machine was most likely made after 1925 when Edison was introducing the short lived 10" and 12" long play records and your finish would probably be topped with lacquer which cannot be re-amalgamated.
You can test a hidden area with denatured alcohol to see if it is shellac or lacquer. The shellac will dissolve when the alcohol is applied.
As far as playing an Edison with a steel needle such as on a Victor, the real issue lies in where the sound is recorded in the groove. Victor and other lateral records have the sound in the walls of the groove whereas Edison's was at the bottom of the groove. I have played Edison Records on Victor machines in the past out of curiosity and haven't noticed any damage to the DDS, the only thing I have observed is the greatly diminished sound due to the placement of the sound in the groove. And I only used Hawaiian DDs to test this theory!! ;D But seriously, don't play any expensive DDs to test this theory. If you have to try it out, use a trashed DD Record. You will be amazed at how diminished the sound will be due to the different recording method.
Bill
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Post by bofusmosby on Nov 2, 2010 18:00:43 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Well, when you said NOT to play the DD records with a steel needle, I didn't question you on this. I figured you knew what you were talking about, and that there must be a good reason for this. Thanks to you, now I know the reasons why. I guess it'l be a while before I can get this phonograph up and running. The way the economy is, (not to mention my finances) I have to watch what I spend. But the good thing is, my wife was all for me getting the grille that you (Bill) have. Also, my wife likes the look of the unit, so the battle is half won already! LOL Thank you for the post about the Edison motor. I found that same thing posted on another web site yesterday. That info will come in handy in the future for sure.
I try to take some photos later on this evening and post some.
Thanks guys!
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Post by bofusmosby on Nov 4, 2010 20:40:46 GMT -5
I finally got a battery for my camera. Here is a photo of the phonograph that was given to me. I tried to download more than 1 photo, I guess I'll find out if it worked in a minute. ;D One is of the top that needs to be refinished. The other is a front view. Attachments:
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Post by bofusmosby on Nov 4, 2010 20:42:49 GMT -5
Well, I see only one came through. Here is the other one showing the top that needs to be refinished. Note the bare wood near the end/front. Attachments:
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