Edison Standard Phonograph.. anything missing?

[stevel]

I initially posted this on the radio form I frequently use, but William (antiqueradiobuff) told me about this great forum!

I normally repair old stereos and radios, but I could not resist purchasing this Edison Standard Phonograph at a local antique store today. Since it was missing the reproducer and the horn, they sold it to me for $20. I figured the nice, wooden handle was worth that!

I wound it up and the mechanism turns, however, the upper pulley just slides freely on the shaft. Is it missing some connecting part? Or is that pulley supposed to be fixed to the shaft?

The inside of the lid states "Type D." Any info would be appreciated.

Lastly, is there a good resource for instructions on replacing the gold foil decoration on the top plate, in case I get things working and decide to strip and repaint it.

Thank you!

[martinola]

Hi stevel.
You have an interesting model D Standard. I would have considered $200 an OK price for it, so $20 is great! What I find interesting about it is that it has the Model F reproducer carrier arm which is relatively uncommon. It may have been a user or factory upgrade on unsold stock. The model type expressed on the plate as a suffix to the serial number indicates that it was one of the earlier model D machines. (Later they went to a plate with its own model type field.)

The pulley should be fixed to the mandrel shaft. Perhaps the set-screw is loose or missing. What you may find is that the potmetal mandrel bushing (or bearing) is swollen and seized-up. Its located right next to the pulley. Modern replacements are readily available from various parts dealers.

Gregg Cline makes very nice decal sets for the bedplate. However, I would advise you to gently clean it, coat it with wax and leave it as-is. If you do want to replace the missing bits, it is possible to keep the old decals and blend-in the newer. I did this with a basket-case Model F. Let me know if you'd like to see the photos of that. Be especially careful around the "4 minute 2" decal as they were applied without a protective coat of shellac over it. (The rest of the striping has shellac over it.) Again, great find. Good luck with your new (old) Standard.

Regards,
Martin

[stevel]

Hi Martin, and thank you for the useful information. I have a similar thread going on the antique radio forums and people have offered a lot of good info as well. Yes, I removed the leather belt, and sure enough, the set-screw was backed off entirely. You were correct. It is now tightened and all seems well so far.

If it is not too much trouble, yes, I would like to see your work on the the Model F, and some info on how you worked in the new bits to match the old gold decoration.

Thank you again for your input.

Steve

[shellophone]

Steve,
The bedplate isn't coated with paint, per se, but rather with a thick substance called 'asphaltum' that is very difficult to remove, and removal is really unnecessary. Restoration should utilize the least destructive processes first -- the idea being to conserve and preserve the original features before more extreme measures such as replacement of original finishes. I have found that cleaning the bedplate with a waterless hand cleaner such as Goop (without pumice), and then polishing it with rottenstone in oil, followed by another cleaning with Goop, and then waxing with coats of a paste wax will make the bedplate look it's best. in areas of heavy oil buildup, gently and slowly remove only the buildup with 0000 steel wool dampened with Goop. Be sure to do any pinstriping restoration after cleaning and polishing, but before waxing. Be careful when polishing with rottenstone over the existing striping.

Goop is also excellent for cleaning the surface of the wood, too. Wipe it off with a white cotton cloth.

[martinola]

Hi Steve.
I'm pretty much in agreement with shellophone on this one. Yours shows normal wear which still looks good and should clean up pretty well. I did a posting on Moooperator's phono board that shows the full restoration of a Standard E. You may want to check out the bedplate section. Here is the link for that:

victrolagramophones.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=repairs&action=display&thread=141

Here are some before & after photos of the Standard F bedplate fixes. The procedure was similar, but I only applied the paint & decal to the missing sections. The stripe sections were repainted by hand using a very small artist's brush because the repro stripes are a bit thicker. Notice the original decal has thinner lines than the repro. It's very close, but not exact.



The paint had chipped away in two areas that left the metal open to rust.





After painting, decal application, and a few coats of shellac.



(Note original corner decoration)

[stevel]

Martin,
Thank you very much for posting the images, a well as the (super informative!) link to your other restoration.

I did clean the bedplate on mine last night. The old shellac was so bad that I could not bring up a shine at all. One poster on my Antique Radios forum thread mentioned that the old shellac could carefully be removed with alcohol. It was a pain, but did get a lot of it off. The problem is that I need to get it off the old striping areas as well, and when I attempted it, even carefully, the striping stayed intact for the most part, but it turned a silver color, and lost the gold tone! I hate to get rid of original striping, but I am tempted... so talk me out of it if need be!

Thanks again, and good work.

Steve

[martinola]

Hey Steve.

Very often, old shellac (such as what you were dealing with) can be re-amalgamated (or re-flowed) by brushing on alcohol. That's essentially what I did with the rest of the Standard F. For the parts that turned silver, I used amber shellac to even out the tinting. I followed up with two or three new over-all coats of shellac. (For that I used white shellac.) I carefully sanded with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper followed by polish with white auto body polish.

If you do go this route, don't be in a hurry. Shellac takes time to cure before you can successfully sand or polish it. Be sure you remove all the parts on the bedplate, (including the Patent Plate) before you try any of this. I approach the project as if I am hand-retouching a photographic print. It helps to have good light and a good magnifier.

Why don't you post a couple of photos as it is right now? That might make it easier to see what your up against. In any case, good luck with this.

-Martin

[stevel]

Thank you again for your input, Martin. Here is an image of showing where I was able to remove the shellac with alcohol and a little rubbing compound, but as you can see, I can not remove the shellac that is on top of the decoration. I just went near it with the alcohol and mild rubbing and the gold tone comes right off.

Maybe re-flowing the shellac in those areas, as you mentioned, may help. Let me know you thoughts now that you see the situation. Of course it would be easy to rub it all off and put new decals, but I suppose it is always best to leave it as original as possible.

BTW, I e-mailed Gregg Cline a few days ago regarding decals, but never heard back. Hopefully, he will reply soon.

Thanks again,
Steve

[martinola]

Hi Steve.

I'm sure Gregg will get back to you, but if he's as busy as I am this holiday season, it might be a little while.

On closer inspection, your "4 minute 2" transfer looks like the one I usually see on Fireside machines. (Another interesting variation.) I too, am on the fence on what to do with this bedplate. You are right not to scrub it any more. The main thing is to get off all of the loose dirt and leave whatever old shellac that remains. Once the paint/shellac dries a day or two (the cleaning will soften it somewhat), I might try paste wax. That will protect it somewhat. It might look a bit better, but it will still show its roughness. In most cases, I'd rather see old machines looking like that than refinished. Yours has wear consistent with its age. In my case, the tipping point was that I had to refinish the model F's case. Your case looks to be a really good original finish. So that might be a reason not to do the full re-do.

Maybe the best way to approach it is to wait until you have to pull out the mandrel shaft. If you have the original mandrel bearing and its still working, I'd leave everything alone. If you have to replace it, then that would be the time to take off all of the parts and restore the missing stripes and corner decal. For that you'll need a 2 or 3 artist's brushes. A very small flat brush (for lines), a small pointed brush (for filling in missing paint in lines) and a 1" brush (for coating the bedplate with new shellac. These should be camel's hair (or similar).

Looking at the photo, I'd strongly suspect that coating right over what you have with thinned shellac would re-adhere the existing shellac and give you a base to work with. (Obviously, you would want to make sure you've first cleaned off any wax or oil.) At that point you wouldn't want to worry about getting it smooth as much as "cementing everything down". The final coats will be the ones that will receive the sanding, smoothing and polishing. How's that for indecision? Anyway, let us know your thoughts and progress.

Regards,
- Martin

[stevel]

Hi Martin,

I sent you the message below as a private message, so as not to bore the group, but maybe your pm address is not working, so here it is. I am mainly interested in your input on the Zinnser shellac (see below)...

I went ahead and brushed alcohol on the plate to re-flow the shellac that I had not rubbed off. Things look a little better, but the gold designs are pretty much silver looking now.
I think I will not get to worried about it now (I usually like to make everything like new!), and just add the missing corner decoration and maybe the long gold lines, then coat over with shellac which I guess if enough coats are applied, can then sand down and polish. Even over the decals if careful?

Quick question. You mentioned the Zinnser Shellac. I saw it in the local hardware store today, but it looks like the do now make an orange tint. They have an amber tint. Should I just use that one?

As you mentioned, the case is not too bad, so I will not refinish it, although the original Edison logo is so faded it is hard to see it. I wonder if I can replace it without a total strip/refinish(?). The cover, on the other hand, is in pretty poor condition.
Take a look at the other thread I initially started on the Antique Radio forum:
antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1254051#1254051


Thanks again for you (and every body else) assistance. I learned quite a bit already.

Steve

[stevel]

I meant it looks like Zinnser does "not" make an orange tint.

Thanks again for your (and everyones) assistance.

Steve

[martinola]

Hi Steve.

Sorry to have missed your PM (I was checking the thread but not logged-in). Yes, the Zinnser Amber Shellac is what I was talking about. (I've called it Orange Shellac for years as a generic term - sorry for the confusion.) I use both the white and amber depending on how much color I need to add. It will help build up color over your silver foil. Also - it will allow you to tint the replacement decal section to match the color of the rest of the decorations.

Do all you can to save that "4 minute 2" decal. Yours is different from most found on Standards. Try using a 1" artists brush with some white shellac (save the Amber for tinting later, if needed). Brush one single pass over it to seal it down and resist the temptation to smooth it out; you can sand and smooth on subsequent over-coats. The idea is to get a few coats built-up over your whole bedplate for protection and smoothing.

On the Old Radios thread there was talking about getting a new reproducer carrier. I really wouldn't do it. The old upgrades are what makes this machine unique. A Model C or H will work just fine in that carrier. (I just tried it on mine.) If you want to use a 14" horn until you can locate a good deal on a cygnet, you can get a 45 degree adapter from Antique Phonograph Supply Co.


As to the case decal; I wouldn't touch it. It's way better to have a darkish original than even the best reproduction.

As always, good luck and let us know what's going on.

- Martin

[stevel]

Thank you. That cleared up a few questions for me. I am glad you (Martin) looked at the other thread, as it made me think only the (scarce?) S reproducer would work with the current carrier.

I will just do the basics, and button the unit up. The mechanism inside the box is quite rusty, but still moves relatively freely. I will clean it up and lube it per information I saw on other threads. No extra $$ now for a cygnet horn or reproducer, but when I have a little extra, I will probably go the route you mentioned with the adapter and 14" horn.

Enjoy the holidays!
Steve

[stevel]

I know you all like looking at photographs, and I had to do something on Christmas day, so I disassembled, cleaned, lubed, and reassembled the mechanism. It seems to run like a Swiss watch now, but I will not know for sure until I complete the rest of the tasks (mainly cosmetic, and I still do not have a horn or reproducer!)...


Although everything moved, there was a lot of rust, and the mechanism was sluggish.




All clean!


Re-assembled and lubed!

[Edison Restorer 64]

Wow Looks Great hello guys this is Antiqueradiobuff yes I told him post it here were all very Knologable
heres what I got off Ebay this past week



I have a edison orignal

The crank came with it.
this one is for a music box it will go back on ebay