Edison Belle
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Edison Bell Indestructible Records!
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Post by Edison Belle on Apr 26, 2008 21:02:43 GMT -5
I don't have an antique phono at the time. I've wanted one since I was a kid, but really know nothing about them. So I have a few question for you experts.
1. Could a newer model that plays four-minute cylinders also play the two-minute cylinders if the diamond stylus were changed out for sapphire? 2. How much should I expect to pay for a quality, working antique phono? 3. Are phonos only able to play cylinders made by their companies? Ie, can an Edison phono only play Edison cylinders and Victrola only play Victrolas?
Thank you.
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Post by lukewarmwater on Apr 26, 2008 22:24:50 GMT -5
Hello! . . . and welcome to the hobby! There is so much for you to learn and the answers to your questions can be very complex to explain to derive a simple answer. I will state a few things to put things into perspective so my reply will be a bit free-form. I'm leaving out a lot of minutiae since you are a newbie.
First, please understand that phonographs were developed and sold along a time line. The earliest machines were "improved" upon and newer technologies superseded the old. Some companies (Edison in particular) took great pains to provide adapter kits so that the Phonograph owner could keep his/her machine up to date with the latest improvements. Other companies such as Columbia and Victor were less inclined to do so. To focus on your #1 question concerning Edison: the earliest Edison cylinder Phonographs played 2-minute cylinders only. The reproducers used sapphire styli that were shaped similar to a doorknob (i.e., the Model C reproducer). In late 1908, Edison introduced the 4-minute wax Amberol cylinder. New Phonograph models were introduced that played both speeds (such as the Amberola I-A), and existing models such as the Gem, Standard, Home, and Triumph were introduced in a new series that had factory installed 2/4-minute capability. In true Edison fashion, adapter kits were introduced that could retrofit earlier 2-minute only models to play both 2 & 4-minute cylinders. New sapphire reproducers were introduced that were dedicated to 4-min. (i.e., the Model H) or were combination types (such as the Model K, Model S, and for the Amberola I-A the Model M). By 1911, the 2-minute cylinder had become obsolete and Edison began to manufacture machines that played 4-min wax cylinders only. In 1913, Edison introduced the 4-min. celluloid Blue Amberol cylinder record. While these can be played with 4-min. sapphire reproducers, a new line of reproducers with heavy weights and diamond styli (such as the Diamond B, and the Diamond A for the Amberola I-B). In Oct. 1914, the Edison Phonograph factory burned, and external horn Phonographs were discontinued in favor of a redesigned line of Amberolas that used a dedicated Diamond C reproducer. Before the fire, some of the Amberola (Amberolas are Edison Phonographs with internal horns) line shared reproducers and motors with some of the external horn models. After the fire, Amberola parts and reproducers only fit Amberolas.
So, to answer #1, the Phonograph would have to be capable of playing 2 and 4-minute records by having either factory combination gearing or a combination kit installed, and the proper reproducer. A 4-min. sapphire stylus will fit in the groove of a 2-min. cylinder because that stylus is 1//2 the width of the groove; however, a 2-minute sapphire stylus will not fit in the groove of a 4-min. cylinder because that stylus is twice as wide as the 4-min. groove. Amberolas other than the I-A will not play 2-minute records, nor will the 2-minute only reproducers fit Amberolas.
Question #3: Edison and Columbia standard-sized cylinders (there were several sizes of cylinders produced that are not what we are talking about here) will play on each other's machines so long as the minutes are compatible and the correct stylus is used (2-min. sapphire for 2-min. wax; 4-min sapphire for 4-min. wax or celluloid; diamond to be used on celluloid only -- never wax).
There were three basic disc formats: 1. lateral -- these are regular 78rpm records. The needle used is typically steel and must be discarded after every play due to wear to the needle tip. In lateral recording, the needle moves side-to-side in the groove. All Victor and Columbia records are laterally recorded, as are 98% of all 78rpm records. Victor and Columbia machines play only lateral records.
2. hill-and-dale -- the stylus is a ball sapphire and moves up-and-down in the groove rather than side-to-side. The groove is U-shaped to accommodate the ball stylus. This was a format that originated in Europe and enjoyed a short popularity in the US after WWI. Example: Pathe' records. Many machines made between 1914 and 1920 have combination reproducers that can be rotated to play both lateral and hill-and-dale formats.
3. vertical -- although hill-and-dale is also vertical, Edison produced a series of disc Phonographs called Diamond Disc Phonographs (and Diamond Disc records) that used a permanent conical diamond stylus and a V-shaped groove. The stylus moves up-and-down in the groove. These records are nearly 1/4" thick. Although meant to be played only on Diamond Disc Phonographs, they can be played on other brands with rotating reproducers in the hill-and-dale position provided a conical diamond stylus is substituted for a ball sapphire.
["Victrolas" are very specifically 78rpm disc phonographs with the horns concealed within the cabinet and produced by the Victor Talking Machine Company]
Question #2 -- When phonographs were new, they sold for a variety of prices from low to high based on brand, quality of construction, and features. The same is true of today's market. What is your budget and what is your intent for listening? The Edison 'Standard' Phonograph is a reasonably priced entry-level Phonograph. It is relatively small, but only has a single main spring and is a bit noisy in the gears. The bigger 'Home' is an excellent choice -- much quieter, but still only a single spring. The large 'Triumph' has all the quietness of the 'Home', but with three springs for really serious listening sessions. Of course, the price goes up with each model, and when you start opting for cygnet horns and combination Model O reproducers, etc., the price goes up even more. Amberola 30's are relatively inexpensive because they are plentiful, but then you are locked into 4-min celluloid cylinders only.
All that said, you can expect to get into a 2/4-minute 'Home' with a Model H reproducer (will play 2 & 4 wax and celluloid) and a small (possibly reproduction) horn for roughly $650. Less for a 'Standard'. Much more for a Triumph. Search 'phonograph' on eBay to help educate yourself, but be careful buying there unless you know what you are doing. There will be a number of reputable phonograph dealers at the big phono show at Union, Il. outside Chicago coming up in the middle of June. Since you are in Michigan, perhaps you can attend. If you send me a personal message, I'll send you my phone number if you'd like more explanation of any of this. It is difficult to communicate all that needs to be said via typing! I'll be here all night! I'm not a dealer myself, just a collector, but I can refer you to honorable sellers.
Kind regards,
Luke W.
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Post by maroongem on Apr 28, 2008 8:27:58 GMT -5
Hello and welcome Edison Belle. Luke W summed it up great for you. I have two friends who have very reasonable machines for sale that live in Michigan and if you PM me, I can can direct you to them and perhaps they can hook you up with a nice starter machine.
Bill
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Edison Belle
New Member
Edison Bell Indestructible Records!
Posts: 2
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Post by Edison Belle on Apr 28, 2008 17:44:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, Luke. It's certainly more complex than I'd imagined.
I'm thinking the Amberola IA would be nice, though I can imagine it costs an arm and a leg.
I looked at the eBay ones before and they look like crapophones. I don't know enough to be certain, but they looked cobbled together.
Diamond stylus for celluloid only. All wax plays only with sapphire stylus.
I wouldn't be able to get out to IL, as I have no money to make such a trip. Thanks for the offer anyway.
Maroongem, thanks for the reply also. I'll drop you a line.
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Post by maroongem on Jun 7, 2008 19:51:32 GMT -5
Edison Belle,
I PM'd you about a few fellows in Michigan that could probably help you with a machine. Where do you live in MI.?
Bill
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Post by countryman on Aug 17, 2008 21:32:04 GMT -5
Hi, I own an Edison Model 80 Cylinder Phonograph, will like to know if someone has some information regarding its value
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Post by condensite on Aug 17, 2008 22:19:17 GMT -5
Hi, I own an Edison Model 80 Cylinder Phonograph, will like to know if someone has some information regarding its value Hello! Are you sure about the model number, or maybe your description? There's a Edison tabletop disc phonograph model 80. Or, maybe yours is an amberola model "30" ? I've not heard of a cylinder model 80 Condensite
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Post by maroongem on Aug 17, 2008 22:21:38 GMT -5
Hi, I own an Edison Model 80 Cylinder Phonograph, will like to know if someone has some information regarding its value A rare machine indeed. They were introduced in 1928 along with the Mod. 60 when cylinder sales and production were nearly non existant in the U.S. I believe there is/was one for sale on ebay with a BIN of $3,000. AFAIK, they weren't sold in the U.S. but were intended for overseas sales to the UK and NZ according to Frow. Could you post some pix of it, especially the Mod. D Reproducer? Bill
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Post by maroongem on Aug 17, 2008 22:28:26 GMT -5
Hi, I own an Edison Model 80 Cylinder Phonograph, will like to know if someone has some information regarding its value I've not heard of a cylinder model 80 Condensite Bob, they were basically an Amberola 50 motor in a Sheraton S-19 cabinet with 2 drawers underneath to hold cylinders and were equipped with the last model of diamond reproducer called a Mod. D. The Amberola 60 was a table model with the same motor and a London No. 1 disc style cabinet. Bill
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Post by walrus on Sept 8, 2008 0:37:18 GMT -5
What is the difference between the Diamond C and the Diamond D reproducers?
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Post by maroongem on Sept 8, 2008 8:36:16 GMT -5
What is the difference between the Diamond C and the Diamond D reproducers? The Diamond D had a spring loaded stylus bar much like the Edisonics and Dance Reproducers and extra weight was added to the regular eight to increase volume but outwardly still basically resembled the Diamond C Bill
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