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Post by kl5160 on Jun 17, 2009 11:32:22 GMT -5
Hello, recently bought an Edison C-250. Noticed a wire (old cloth covered) that came up through the small tube under the reproducer arm and ends next to the reproducer with a small jack on the end. Below the turntable where the on and off break levers are normally located they have been replaced with, what appears to be some sort of aftermarket electrical switch. (looks very period) I haven't tested it but it appears to make contact when the turntable is off. I've head of aftermarket lighting devices that ran on a battery. Just wondering if anyone knows anything about these devices and or what it could be. Thank you!!
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Post by matty on Jun 17, 2009 12:40:58 GMT -5
It is an actual Edison accessory called the Duncan Stop. It operated on a a 1.5 vt or 3 vt battery if I remember correctly, and was activated at the end of the record when the limit pin touched the loop on the front of the reproducer.
I think there's a couple threads on this board about the Duncan stop, which should come up using the search feature below the board banner above.
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Post by matty on Jun 17, 2009 13:10:32 GMT -5
Actually, I just tried the search feature myself & didn't find what I was looking for. The one thread I did find doesn't give much information, & contains a link to another board which no longer exists  According to Frows Diamond disc book, the Duncan stop was added to the C250 in April 1917, but stopped being used as standard equiptment on the C250 sometime during 1918, although they were still available as an optional extra. I've never owned a Duncan brake, but I wouldn't imagine they'd be too hard to get operational again. You'd most likely have to replace the rubber insulation at the bottom of the limit loop to prevent the circuit from being closed when the reproducer is in the raised position. Hopefully Bill (maroongem) can advise the best way to go about restoring the system, as he's restored Duncan brakes before. |
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Post by kl5160 on Jun 17, 2009 22:08:23 GMT -5
Wow!! Thank you for the great information. I've been thinking that someone just added this device on it and a lot of parts were missing. I took a closer look at the wire with the jack on the end just hanging near the reproducer. Took the reproducer off and "what do ya know" there's a place for it to plug into at the back. Looked at a reproducer on another C-250 I have and no hole for a jack so the reproducer is probably original to it. Also there is a little rubber tube that would seem to be the insulator you mentioned around the limit loop. Sooooo, I guess the next step is to determine what voltage to use (1 1/2 or 3volts) hook it up and see what happens. Any ideas on where or how Edison had the battery mounted? Thanks again!!
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Post by matty on Jun 18, 2009 4:08:29 GMT -5
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Post by kl5160 on Jun 18, 2009 10:23:46 GMT -5
Thanks again for all the great info. The 1923 version seen in the patent papers is a different version than mine. mine seems to be a lot simpler. Looking for where the battery might have been mounted the only thing I found was a metal strap screwed into the left back corner of the horn box. I was told at one time that is where the reproducer was stored in shipping. Both of my C-250's have it. But the wires are long enough that it would be a perfect place to put a battery. Wonder what edisons battery looked like. At any rate I think I'll hook up a 1 1/2 volt battery to it and see what happens. If that dosn't work then a 3. Thanks again!!!
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Post by coyote on Jun 18, 2009 11:25:44 GMT -5
Regarding the previous discussions of the Duncan stop on other boards (?) I seem to remember that someone sells reproduction battery housings that you "hide" modern batteries in for that "authentic" look. Sorry I don't remember the link...
That's a great find; usually you don't find a machine originally fitted with the Duncan stop with the correct reproducer (and wire) with it, or the insulation still intact around the limit loop. Others are sure to respond--I recall someone had a lot of experience with making a Duncan stop work correctly, as they can be finicky.
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Post by matty on Jun 18, 2009 12:33:31 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the metal strap you found will be for the battery. As far as I know, the reproducer was always at the front of the horn compartment for shipping, and normally on the front left except on the earliest of models.
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Post by kl5160 on Jun 18, 2009 13:37:46 GMT -5
OK Now it sort of makes sense in the horn compartment. In the front left and attached to the bottom is the neat wooden bracket with the metal strap to hold the reproducer. I figured someone screwed it down there later since my other one dosn't have one. Hmmmmm! More original neat stuff. Love it. Also found the oil can and little grease jar that probably came originally with it. I believe this Edison ( with oak veneer) has really been well taken care of in the past. Going to try and find out about the history from the antique dealer I bought it from. Soon as I can figure out how to post pictures I'll get some pictures out on the Duncan brake. Thanks again to all for the fantastic info!!!!! Now on to find an original battery. Ha! Later, Bob
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Post by maroongem on Jun 18, 2009 14:31:24 GMT -5
Hi Kl5160 and welcome to the board,
The cradle that you mention in the front left corner is the shipping cradle for the reproducer as Shane mentioned. Sometimes they're there, and sometimes the owner removed it. As far as activating the Duncan Stop, not too much of a problem if both wires are present. There should be a wire that leads off the stop mechanism attached to the bed plate and the second wire should be attached to the rear portion of the Reproducer, there is a hole drilled at the rear of the swivel where the weight is attached to the sound cup and this metal tipped wire should be pushed in there.
The voltage to trip this stop was a dry cell 6v and you can still get them from EverReady. They are for camping lanterns etc., but will do just fine for this application. There are repro batteries made that look like the originals but are very expensive.
I would suggest taking some steel wool and cleaning up the oxidation that has formed on both ends of the wires (or replacing the wire) and cleaning out the hole on the end of the Reproducer with 400 or better sandpaper. You may want to clean the contacts on the trip with 400 grit sandpaper as well unless you have a rifler file for cleaning contacts on the points found in the older car distributors.
A word of caution though. These stops were quirky at best and really didn't work as well as the standard Edison semi -auto brake mechanism. They are a neat novelty though, and it's nice to see a complete set-up still in situ. I have done a few of these over the years and was never really impressed with the results.
Bill
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Post by kl5160 on Jun 18, 2009 15:32:06 GMT -5
Thanks Bill!! I don't think the Duncan Stop has ever really been used much. The wires are like new. (green cloth covered) The ends to the battery look unused. About a half inch stripped with solder to make the wire ridged. They are straight and look unused. So now off to buy a 6volt dry cell and see what happens. Thanks for the great advice!! I've seen old paper covered radio batteries that had a type of spring clip you'ld push down , put the wire in and release to hold it. Any idea of where I could find a photo of the original battery? Thanks, Bob
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Post by kl5160 on Jun 20, 2009 2:36:37 GMT -5
Just a followup on the Duncan electric brake I've been trying to figure out. Thanks to all the help I got here I have it dialed in and working. For those who have never seen how these work I'll try to explain. I'ts a real simple way of activating an electric magnet that releases a catch that holds the brake under the turntable. In order to do this the first wire that is connected to the coils for the magnet also charges the whole metal platform the turntable is mounted on including the arm and reproducer. The second wire is connected to and plugged into the lower half of the reproducer which is insulated from the top half. Now the neat part that makes the electrical connection, that activates the magnet, that releases the break when the record comes to the end, is at the place where the pin goes through the limiting loop at the front of the reproducer. There is a little rubber tube type insulater on that pin that keeps the pin from makeing contact with the limiting loop when the arm is picked up. When the record is playing however and comes to the end, the pin will keep on moveing until it makes contact with the side of the loop. The electrical connection is then made and the brake is released and the record stops. Wow! What a simple but neat invention. Thanks again for all the help in figureing this out. Oh and the 6 volt square lantern battery fits perfect in the back of the horn box in the original battery bracket.
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Post by matty on Jun 20, 2009 5:00:37 GMT -5
It's great to hear you got it working without much trouble. I wonder how many modern electrical devices will be able to be hooked up in 90 yrs time & still work? They don't make 'em like they used too  |
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Post by kl5160 on Jun 20, 2009 8:46:13 GMT -5
One last thought. You're so right about "they don't make um like they used to" and so simple! An antique dealer added a personal thought on their ebay ad saying something to the affect of we're always looking for answers to a simpler, easier and greener way of doing things. The answers are already here! They are found in our grandparents, landfills and museums. For some reason that struck a cord with me. Well now I've got to go find another Edison to work on. Ha!
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Post by maroongem on Jun 20, 2009 20:57:29 GMT -5
Bob,
Good work! Hopefully it'll behave for you. It really was a neat idea as opposed to setting the standard semi-auto brake Edison used as far as longer and shorter pieces being shut off.
Bill
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