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Post by Matt Brown on Aug 13, 2007 15:30:37 GMT -5
Anyone have similar experiences? Any thoughts? Each week I get between 5 and 20 emails through my website from various folks telling me of a phonograph that they just "stumbled upon" or bought or inherited, and asking me for a free appraisal. I never reply. However... Sometimes, I'll get emails saying "I have a _________ phonograph, and I want to sell it. Are you interested? Make me an offer" So I'll sometimes contact them, depending on what it is they are selling, and ask for more photos and details before making an offer. About 70% of the time I'll actually get more info, and follow through with an offer, only to see the machine pop up on eBay shortly thereafter, with the seller now feeling comfortable on where to set the reserve.
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Post by rocky on Aug 13, 2007 17:58:21 GMT -5
Matt, have you contacted others, such as George Vollema, who are in the phono business, to find out how they handle this scenario? I'm sure this happens all the time to people who deal in antiques and collectibles. Whether it's old phonographs, antique furniture, or vintage autos, it's the same brand of trickery designed to elicit a free estimate.
Rocky
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Post by maroongem on Aug 14, 2007 12:47:33 GMT -5
Matt,
I guess that comes with the territory when you have a web page. Tell them your time isn't free, but you would be glad to do one for a fee, or you could include that codicil on your webpage. That may cut down the number of "tire kickers."
Bill
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Post by neophone on Aug 14, 2007 16:24:37 GMT -5
Matt,
I think Bill is right. If they are going to lie to you to get an appraisal there's not much you can do. As long as you are interested in occasionally buying a machine through your site, there are those who are going to waste your time and in essence steal your time. Another sad fact of life I guess.
Regards, J.
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Post by Matt Brown on Aug 14, 2007 17:06:09 GMT -5
I have indeed thought about putting a blurb on my site about appraisals, and charging a fee to do so. I dunno - something about that strikes me a wrong though, but I'm not sure what..... any thoughts?
Matt
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Post by neophone on Aug 14, 2007 17:54:42 GMT -5
Matt, If you have the time you might consider offering appraisals for a fee. There's nothing wrong with that. But then you will have to contend with folks who believe their machines must be worth thousands of dollars. I'm sure you've run across a few of those. I would wonder if there is any sort of liability involved, probably not, but I'm a worry-wort! Regards, J.
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Post by rocky on Aug 14, 2007 18:24:35 GMT -5
Matt, when people ask for estimates, direct them to Tim Gracyk's article on the value of phonographs. Tim had the same problem. www.gracyk.com/phonovalue.shtmlRocky
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Post by Don IV on Aug 14, 2007 22:06:56 GMT -5
Matt, when people ask for estimates, direct them to Tim Gracyk's article on the value of phonographs. Tim had the same problem. www.gracyk.com/phonovalue.shtmlRocky back when I was a novice I found Tim's web page and asked what the going rate was for a VV-XVII that a friend of mine was wanting to buy. He very graciously answered me and I thanked him. That was however at least 10 or 12 years ago and I don't think there were that many people finding his website. I can see now that answering every email that came in would take a lot of time. I think now that a lot of people are only asking "what's it worth" because they want to make a bundle by selling something on ebay. I can only imagine how much email Paul Edie must get from his website since it''s probably one of the most quoted sites I've seen. The alternative is to just put together a form letter that you can reply to any request for values and offer no real info.
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kirk
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Post by kirk on Aug 21, 2007 21:36:57 GMT -5
I work at a shop where we sell "Architectural Antiques" and we get calls daily asking "do you buy...." and "what's this worth....". Usually we ask the caller to send/email photos, that culls out a lot of the casual requests. For most other callers, the owner points out that the seller has to set the price, and that's just business; you can't really go to the drug store and have the proprietor ask you "what do you think this is worth". This puts the onus on the seller to do their homework---which is what they're trying to skip out of when they call you. Since we re-sell what we buy, there is a necessary spread between wholesale and retail pricing---again, that's just business---and so it affects how much the seller can expect to get for their item. So far, if the seller gets the amount they asked, AND it's cost effective for us, everybody is happy and business goes on. In a few rare cases, where something turned out to be worth more than we expected, the owner has contacted the seller and given them more, even after the initial deal was completed. This isn't typical, especially in the antiques biz, but sometimes a good deed goes a long way in the long haul.
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Post by steve432 on Sept 7, 2007 12:48:53 GMT -5
Matt
Over the past few years I've had a lot of people contact me with similar requests wanting to know if this is A or B and what is it worth etc. Up until now I've always obliged and given advice where I can or declined to get involved if it was about something of which I knew very little.
Like yourself and similar to what others here have already said, I'm now beginning to tire of these people who are in many instances pure time-wasters. I wrote at length to a lady in Canada who sent me photos of a Crapophone she had just bought believing it to be an original machine and I explained in minute detail why I knew the thing was totally wrong. I hoped that i would be able to help her retrieve her money from the seller too but she never even had the common courtesy to reply back. So much for that!
I now take the (questionably cynical?) view that the only time to get involved is when you can get something out of it for yourself. If a machine is offered and it is of interest to you, why not try to see if you can buy it for a sensible price? Otherwise, perhaps ignoring them is the right answer after all?
I would be careful with the thought of charging for advice too - surely when there is an exchange of money, a contract is made between you and the other person with obligations on your part to provide accurate information and assessments. As we all know, machines and records are very difficult items to put any kind of definitive value on and the last thing anyone wants is for someone to come back to you and have reason to complain over poor advice given!
A dealer once told me to keep some knowledge I had over the repairability of a machine part "close to my chest" in the knowledge that "we" could then ensure that the machines found in disrepair could be bought relatively cheaply as would have always been the case up until this time. In other words, don't sell your knowledge or repair skills cheaply. Use these skills to your advantage to make capital out of obsolete junkers to make collecting records and machines, a self-funding project.
Sure enough, when the word gets out, the price of the junkers will rise as more people realise that there is money to be made, even if they don't share our particular enthusiasm for the items and are solely interested in making money.
So yes, maybe offering free advice to all and sundry who contact us out of the blue, is not a great idea. Charging for advice brings its own problems too so maybe Matt's approach to ignore, if you're not especially interested in something for yourself or a friend, is the absolutely best approach?
S.
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ultona
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Post by ultona on Sept 7, 2007 13:22:45 GMT -5
That's an interesting approach, too, Steve. Keeping a machine's "repairability" close to your chest is something I would feel funny about. I've done lots of small repairs, rebuilds and such for people and I have a tough time holding something back, good or bad and it always works out for the best in the end.
I'm interested in opinons about these "honest" dealings everyone has had. Somebody on the "other" board really angered me awhile back by saying that no matter what, if you are to somehow land a machine for considerably less than it is worth that you are morally obligated to "make good" with the seller by giving them the difference in price. This has really been racking my brain for a few weeks now, just because it really made me think "but what if...." too many times!
Where am I going with this, you ask? Well....
Recently, I picked up a cute, yet boring little VV-210 off Craigslist from a very nice couple who were selling their house and "wanted it gone". When I asked for a price, she immediately said $50, come and get it. I bought it sight unseen and went a couple days later to pick it up. When I got to their house, these two very nice people helped me load it up and as I was getting ready to head home, she stopped me and said to come back inside. I was led to four huge boxes full of related phono stuff, mostly records (that upon later inspection turned out to be some extremely nice and some quite rare ones) and one small box with some paper catalogs, leaflets, flyers and a nice duster. Anyway, they were so happy that their machine was going to a good home, they didn't care about the money. So home I went (and quite happy at that with my little deal). I actually had to go back to help a friend of mine with a sideboard he bought from the same people. I spoke with them further and thanked them again for everything and without hesitating I asked if I could offer them any extra for the "extras" they gave me. No. Are you sure, I ask, some very nice records and paper stuff in the lot....again. NO. What was I supposed to do? Throw another $50 at her? According to some, I should have!
Another Craigslist experience was my super clean Victor 130, which the guy wanted $1000 for. After I got there and inspected and made my deal for slightly less and paid, I went home. When I went back the next day to collect the machine, I discovered the albums were not only all there and perfect, but again full of nice records, instructions and index book. This made the deal better for me in my eyes, but yet I still was paying fair. After it was loaded up and I was paying up the balance to the guy, his wife came outside with a small box with some "victrola stuff" in it from her uncle's 130. I glanced inside quick, saw a duster and some needle packs and closed it back up. "Thanks!" I said and told her these things would be staying with the machine in my collection as it should. Only once I got home did I find two cool round "Brillianttone" tins (full), the aforementioned duster that matched the dealer tag on the machine, about 12 unopened packs of Victor needles and under those, a holy grail, the red Victor "1000" tin, in perfect shape! So now I realize I had a very nice find and a great deal after all of that. Should I have called back and sent them more money? My thought is no way. They were so happy it was going into a collection where it would be cleaned up and displayed, used and enjoyed and all the goodies that were with it would stay with it. I am a strong believer in being as honest as possible in closed, private deals, I don't go around "ripping off" old ladies and stupid people like others do as a practice.
So, what do you all think about situations like that?
I wonder because this mentality I've heard from others would mean if you found (and won) a Victor V on ebay for a low price then you should pay the seller the difference? If you go to a poorly attended estate auction (which I have done tons of times) and found a rare machine and got it for hundreds less than you expected, should you give the auctioneer more money just becuase you got a good deal? I think not! Would they do that for you....we all know that answer.
In that same line, where does that leave the "dealers" out there who buy wholesale and sell retail? According to this philosophy this "party" has, they should (or would) be out of business!
An aside...and sorry to ramble, but it bugs me...I don't sell phonos as a general rule. I only buy for my collection. I did, however, pick up two VV-IVs and a Columbia Favorite recently at a farm auction for $20-30 each that I will clean up and put on ebay to subsidize some of my recent big purchases.
So, now, I open this to your opinions!
Sean
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Post by steve432 on Sept 7, 2007 14:43:22 GMT -5
Sean
You sound so fair and straight and brutally honest in your dealings that I'm as equally pleased as I am surprised. (Not that I would have expected anything different from you anyway, you understand, but these days it is getting rare to find people who are this fair in their dealings!)
I can't understand why you might even have a pause to think that anything you have / haven't done is even remotely questionable?
BTW when i said about keeping cards close to the chest I was quoting a dealer who admired my work on Lumiere machines and was simply making a point that IF I told every "laymen" that their wrecked machines could be revamped by me, they would then want a share of the "value" of my work by virtue of expecting more money for the "raw" machine, if that makes any sense?
For instance if the machine was generally accepted as being "worth" $800 in wrecked state and then I find a way of returning it to a $1500 state, should I tell all these people who simply want to "dispose of granny's stuff" when they have no interest bar financial gain in it?
If I tell them what I'm going to do with it they will then either expect far more money for it or ask me how much my charge is to do the work for them so that they can make a huge profit out of my work thereafter on Ebay. I think I'm now beginning to side with the dealer's philosophy.
Of course there is another fundamental problem here too - we talk openly on boards like this to feely share info' with other like-minded individuals who are kindred spirits of the collecting world and share our love of the machines and records. BUT as happened recently on the "other board" many collectors fell over themselves in their enthusiastic responses to a rare Victor machine which a dealer was openly obtaining information from the board on. Of course, he was only interested in getting the best valuation in order to sell for the best possible price whilst not offering to anyone from the board (at least not in a publicly "open" fashion). I seem to recall there was a backlash afterwards with various recriminations and a lot of embarrassed people wishing they hadn't spoken!
My point is that there would appear to be a fine line between keeping your cards close to your chest in order to preserve your own gains and sharing information feely with fellow collectors like us who are not primarily interested in the money side of everything. After all, in situations like this, how easy would it be to tell a genuine enthusiast from someone who is simply wanting to dispose of something for maximum gain on a one-off inheritance?
Lol! I'm beginning to sound as though I'm against all non-collectors! I'm certainly not, of course, but to answer your question as to whether you should have gone back and offered more when they clearly didn't want or expect more money, the answer would surely be "no". Part of being fair and satisfied with a deal rests with the knowledge that the other party were "happy" with their side of the bargain. In your cases, they were so everyone's a winner!
S.
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ultona
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Post by ultona on Sept 7, 2007 16:16:45 GMT -5
Right, thanks Steve... Now about the "cards" thing. Well, if somebody brings me a repair for something they plan on reselling, chances are it's somebody I know anyway, or somebody who heard of me through somebody I know or somebody I've bought from. I've passed up some nice "before repair" machines I've had brought in simply because they were nothing special. I guess if they plan on ebaying and cashing in, to me anyway, that's fine. I've provided a service that has a fee. No sliding profit scale like ebay can bring you, no doubt! My outlook is that of a non-dealer, too, so the money making doesn't always mean much to me. Yea, that Gothic Victor, how could I have forgotten that one! I was one of the "pointers-out" of problems with that and, as I recall, the owner was pretty obviously "fishing" rather than gathering knowledge for a collection piece. We all should have known better, but hey, at least none of us volunteered any real labor or energy into that and really lost anything, at least I don't feel like I did. Would be nice to see it sell and see what happens! I've also found that being honest and fair with repairs will bring you more leads and, in general, is always beneficial, one way or another. I can only think of one time where I was taken by someone. It wasn't taken as much as it was "led on" to believe the machine I was working on would be offered to me at first refusal. In 1988, I was 15 and my neighbor's 90+ year old mother had died and she inherited a house full of antiques. Knowing what I was into even then, she came over to my house and asked if i would check out a cylinder machine her mother had. I followed....in their front foyer on the floor sat a nearly perfect Columbia BG in mahogany, a floor crane, perfect nickel plated flower horn and two large carrying cases full of mint mint mint brown wax cylinders (which obviously were earlier than said machine...). She asked if I could check out the machine on my bench and see if it needed anything. I said sure and asked if she minded if I brought it all there just so I could hear the setup and play some of those records. No problem. So about three or four days later I called her over to see the machine. I had oiled and greased everything, given all the nickel a cleaning and light polish (including the horn and crane) and rebuilt the reproducer. All for $25. I was happy I got to hear all these great Dan W. Quinn, Arthur Collins, George W. Johnson, etc cylinders. She then asked me what she could sell it all for and really not being certain, I told her I'd give her $500 for it all. At the time, that was probably a very fair price. Now that would have been a steal! Anyway, she declined and said she might want to sell and she'd give me first refusal. I then asked her if she'd sell me any records or trade five for my work. No, she wouldn't, it all went together, she figured. Well, I can tell you that for 10 years I kept asking and for 10 years that machine sat in the foyer of her house where I put it all back, never getting moved. I'd bet it's still there, and at this point those brown wax cylinders have probably been destroyed by mildew. She never did pay me the $25 for all the work I did! Sean
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Post by beaumonde on Sept 11, 2007 12:06:49 GMT -5
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ultona
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Post by ultona on Sept 11, 2007 13:36:45 GMT -5
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