Main Spring Condition

[timod9857]

Hello To All,

I am back again with a slight problem. Being very new to Edison Phonographs and knowing even less I am very excited about this board. I am hopping that there is someone out there that might be able to help. I have a Model B Phonograph that I have been working on. I recently installed a 2/4-minute gearing and it appears that everything went well. My problem is that when I wind the spring and run the machine with the belt disconnected it works great. Runs for several minutes and appears to be very smooth. The problem happens when I install the belt. The mandrel and feed screw appear to run free and smooth but when the belt is installed the entire spring and gearing section shuts down. If I start it by hand it will run a few seconds but then stop again. I am wondering if I need a new spring. This one looks in good condition and I have not greased it yet (not sure what to use) so I don’t know if that is the problem. I hope there is someone out there that might have an answer. Plus I am hoping someone can tell me what type of lubricant to use. I used 3 & 1 oil on the gears and shafts but am very confused about the best type to use. Any assistance you might have would be fantastic. Thank you all in advance for any help.

Respectfully,
Tim O’D

[matty]

The first thing to check is the belt tension roller under the motor board. It's a small brass drum on an arm which sits against the belt to keep the tension right. These are often siezed up & won't turn, so will be acting like a brake on the belt. Also check that the belt isn't too tight.
I use singer sewing machine oil on my machines, and put a drop on all the bearings & small toothed gears. I just use a light grease on the larger gear teeth, but you can even use vasoline if you want to.
With the belt off & the machine fully wound, it should run for around 10 minutes on a Standard, or longer on bigger machines if everything is oiled & aligned properly. If it only runs for a few minutes with no tension on the motor, the spring might have lost its power or it might have been shortened at some stage.
I'd oil & grease everything first, and make sure it's running properly before getting a new spring though.

[neophone]

Tim,

I think most likely it's not have the springs greased. If nothings to tight or binding it may well be a torque issue. Have you cleaned the spring? You post gives the impression you have opened the spring barrel cleaned the spring but not yet re-greased it.

I haven't tackled a spring yet myself, but I understand a lot of collectors now use a graphite or molybdenum lubricant.

Regards,
J.

[maroongem]

Tim,

Another thing you may wish to look at is if the half nut is too tight against the feed screw. Try running the machine with the belt installed but having the half nut not in contact with the feedscrew. This can be done by lifting the lever on the carriage arm (and it will rest on the knife edge) so the half nut is disengaged from the feed screw. If it runs in this position, you need to adjust the small set screw (and perhaps the half nut mounting screws) on the bar that the half nut is attached to.

[larryh]

My Amberola 30 had the same issue, ran fine without a record, but with it it came to a stop.
Steven discovered that the spring was just plain worn out.. He said when he took it out of the barrel it only would open up about 12 inches.. it should have expanded to about three feet. With a new spring it works fine.

John, I am no spring repair person either. Years ago I used to take them apart and if broken an old friend of the family showed me how to rivet it back together. That was in the day that parts weren't readily available. I haven't tackled removing a spring and regreasing it in years though. My chippendale needs it big time..

[timod9857]

WOW ! ! !and double WOW. What a response. I really appreciate it. I will take the spring out and grease it, then check the feed screw as described and make double sure that everything is aligned. I want to thank ALL of you. As always it just goes to show that people who have a passion for something and are really in to it will always share information and go out of their way to help. I will keep you all informed as to how things go and THANKS again ! ! ! !

Tim O'D ;D

[timod9857]

Hi All,

Just a quick note to let all of you know that your suggestions WORKED ! ! ! ! They were perfect. I took the feed screw assembly apart, cleaned it well, applied a small amount of oil, reassembled it and kept the two guides a little loose. Then I repacked the main spring and now it works fantastic. I want to give a Big thank you to everyone. It is great to see how well everyone helps and to have the finished project working. ;D

Now, being the pest that I am I have another favor to ask. On my Edison Standard Phonograph there is a small, silver box attached to the arm that hold the reproducer. In every picture that I have looked at I never see one. It is about 1" wide by 2"long, sort of a chrome silver with a pull off top that has springs to hold in on with. Does anyone have any idea what this is a the purpose for it?

Finally does anyone know where I could purchase or who might have the best type of grease for the main spring? After all of the work and the problems I do not want to scrimp on anything as simple as oil and grease.

Once again thanks you all for everything and I hope to be in the position someday where I can help others.

Thanks,
Tim O'D

[matty]

That silver box is the shaver- used to shave down blank cylinders for home recordings.
The knurled screw at the back of the carry arm is used to move the shaver in & out from the cylinder surface, and a small glass/sapphire blade cuts back the wax. You were very lucky to get one with your machine as they are often missing.

[maroongem]

Hi Tim,

It's interesting that your B still retains the shaver as they were done away with during the Mod. A run. Is your speed control knob above the motor board or below? If it is above the motor board it would be an A model. It is posible that the carriage arm with shaving attachment was replaced at a later time if your machine is in fact a Mod. B.

Bill

[timod9857]

Hello Again,

The Speed Control/Governor screw is above the bedplate. Accessible without opening the case. The last posted patent date is Nov 17, 1903. I am honestly not sure if the machine is a Model A or B. The inside of the top and in the base does have a green tint to it if that helps. I have heard that this condition is not the normal.

I can see where the shaver would adjust towards a cylinder but am unsure about how it might cut. I will take a better look and let you know.

Thanks again for responding.

Many Thanks,
Tim O'D

[matty]

It's a Model A, and should have the large banner decal on the front of the cabinet. The green tinted oak was also a feature of the Model A's.
On the surface of the shaver that faces the cylinder, there should be a raised circle with a slot in it. Protruding slightly from this slot, should be the cutter blade. I'm not sure how the blade itself is adjusted, as I've never owned a shaving attachment, but Bill should be able to fill you in on how it all adjusts. Just be careful when cleaning the blade not to damage it. The sharper they are the better.
Now all you need is a recorder & a couple blanks, and you can make your own records :-)

[maroongem]

Hi Tim,

Your shaver works on the same principle as a manual lathe with the cutting sapphire removing the recording as the feedscrew moves the carriage arm and shaver across the cylinder. As Matty said, sharpness is paramount and you may wish to inspect the sapphire cutter for any chipping of the cutting edge. You can remove the shaver from the carriage arm by unscrewing the knurled adjusting knob and the shaver will separate from the arm. Don't lose the spring that puts the tension on the shaver!!
The trick is to remove a little material at a time. You may have to make several passes to completely remove the old recording. To shave, you simply start at the beginning of the cylinder and turn the knurled knob clockwise. This will bring the cutting sapphire in contact with the cylinder surface and you will begin to see it remove the wax. As I said earlier, you don't want to take too much off on the pass as it may pit the surface. Gradual removal will give you a smooth surface to record on.
Recording blanks were a softer material that the gold moulded cylinders and shave much easier and to be truthful, I've never had much success in getting a good surface on a gold moulded cylinder to record on.
Apparently, the shaver was removed from the STANDARD after the "A" model as it didn't have enough "oomph" to shave satisfactorily.

Bill

[gibsonj]

Tim,

You had asked what type of lubricant to use for mainsprings. Edison's original formula was a 1 for 1 volume mixture of #2 flake graphite and petroleum jelly. I think you can purchase this original formula from places like APSCO (www.antiquephono.com).

I have also read that some collectors use molybdenum grease (can be found at autoparts stores). I can't vouch for how well this works, as I usually stick with Edison's solution.

Hope this helps.

John