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Post by dedune on Feb 8, 2013 23:27:01 GMT -5
I am new to Edison Phonographs. I recently picked up an Edison Standard Model B with 2/4 combo gearing and working to get it cleaned up and functional. I am estimating it was made about 1907-08 since it has just the Edison logo rather than the banner logo. I would like to get the correct, original components to finish it out.
My biggest concern is about the carriage arm. It looks like a Horizontal B/O reproducer arm I saw listed on Ebay. Is this arm usual with this model machine converted to the combo gearing? It has an adapter for the smaller reproducers, and came with a broken Model C reproducer. It would be nice to be able to play both 2min and 4min cylinders. I have a model H reproducer that works fine on this. Should I be considering a Model 0 instead?
The arm is horizontal, so my witches hat horn is pointing directly towards the ceiling. There is no evidence of any type of crane supports ever being attached to the case. Were there any period correct horns without a crane and an angle to the horn?!?!
I need the following original parts to complete the case, can anyone recommend sources?
4 Rubber feet
Bedplate support slide w/2 screws
1 screw for joining bedplate to wood frame.
1 hinge(2 holes per flange)
Brake pad(I can only stop the machine running by holding the switch down.)
Parts for Model C reproducer(Fishtail weight, stylus, hinge block, etc)
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Post by phonogfp on Feb 8, 2013 23:41:44 GMT -5
Welcome! If you can supply your machine's serial number, I can tell you the month it left the factory.
A horizontal carriage on a Standard Model B with a 2/4 minute attachment is perfectly legitimate. I have such an attachment & arm in the original box for a Standard B. Since you have a functional H reproducer plus the adapter for the C & H reproducers, you're well on the way to 2 & 4 minute cylinder reproduction. A Model O reproducer will usually command $450-$500 in today's market, so pursuing that option will be expensive.
I suspect if you examine the bottom of the cabinet, you'll find a small stamped steel bracket held on with 4 screws. Or perhaps only the 4 empty screw holes. If so, your machine was fitted with an Edison crane to support a larger flower horn (often called a "morning glory" horn). Such a horn, along with a 45-degree adapter for use with your horizontal carriage was a common configuration in the 1908-09 period before the introduction of cygnet horns.
You can buy one of these cranes as a reproduction, along with the parts you mention from Ron Sitko. He doesn't have a web site, but can be reached by phone at 518-371-8549.
Good luck!
George P.
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Post by maroongem on Feb 9, 2013 8:39:25 GMT -5
You may also consider a Diamond B Reproducer which will play Blue Amberols and other celluloid cylinders. This will drop right into your horizontal carriage. These are considerably cheaper than a Mod. O, the only downside is buying one where the condition of the diamond is unknown. You would best be served if you could purchase one that has been rebuilt with new gaskets and the diamond tested. These can't be used on wax cylinders as they will ruin them in a NY minute. You might want to get yourself a complete Mod. C, as getting what you need may cost more than one that is good to go. If Ron doesn't have all the items that you need, there are other suppliers that stock original parts. Wyatt's www.wyattsmusical.com/George Vollema www.victroladoctor.com/BillF |
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Post by dedune on Feb 9, 2013 9:07:37 GMT -5
The serial number is 421935. Very cool that you can get that specific information from the number. Especially for a company that no long exists. I checked the bottom of the case again, no screw holes at all or any mounting plates. There are some scratches in the shellac on the right side of the box, up near the bedplate frame. No matching scratches on the inside thou. So did the owner of this just tolerate a horn pointing straight up, or are there any other horn options without mounting hardware? I tried attaching a photo of the machine. The finish is extremely dark because there is a layer of dirt/grime/soot on the surface of the shellac. The logo is mostly intact but almost invisible under the dirt. The unfinished wood inside the box is almost black(oxidization?). Does this look like oak wood with some kind of mahogany finish, or might it actually be mahogany wood? I have no eye yet for IDing wood/finish types. I have successfully cleaned/oiled the gearing and got this to play a 4 min blue amberol. Looks like I don't need to mess with the mainspring any. I haven't tried winding it up fully yet. Can these things be wound too tight? Or is it OK to just keep winding till it stops? Attachments:
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Post by dedune on Feb 9, 2013 9:14:51 GMT -5
A better look at the case and finish Attachments:
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Post by maroongem on Feb 9, 2013 9:35:57 GMT -5
They may have used a floor crane or one that clamped onto the machine w/o screws, but it's quite possible that this was put together at a later time, long after the original owner. The crank is not the correct one for your machine. Possibly a Columbia crank?
Get yourself a can of non-pumice Go-Jo hand cleaner. You can clean the cabinet and the bed plate and you will be amazed by the results.
The wood is oak but the finish has darkened with age/smoke and grime.
You can wind the spring until you feel stiff resistance. It would be hard to truly over-wind the machine.
BillF
Edit for spelling
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Post by phonogfp on Feb 9, 2013 9:53:18 GMT -5
Edison Standard No.421935 left the factory about March 1907.
I'm puzzled by the lack of crane traces, but no doubt Bill is correct in suspecting the use of a floor crane - although 1907 was pretty late for such things. Perhaps the dealer had one in stock he wanted to be rid of, and gave the original owner a deal! We'll never know. And of course it's always possible that the present carriage was added much later.
George P.
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Post by dedune on Feb 9, 2013 14:40:54 GMT -5
Thanx guys. All this is a big help.
Bill: are you sure about that crank? I look at other Model B Standards and don't see a difference. Are you perhaps thinking of the slotted cranks as opposed to the threaded one like this? It would strike me as quite a coincidence if another manufacturer's crank had the exact same thread size.
I think I figured out the horn situation. Simple solutions are always best. The horn probably had a 45 degree elbow adapter. Am I right in thinking that this model would have had a 10 panel horn? That is what it says in "The Compleat Talking Machine". I like my witches hat with it's brass, but it is an early reproduction. I am hoping to go all original in this project.
If this serial number came out of the factory in 1907, then it almost certainly went out as a 2 minute machine. That is if the article I read is correct about the 4 minutes being introduced in 1908. So the gearing and probably the carriage were upgraded at a later time.
Would a Diamond B reproducer be much better than my H Reproducer? My H has a box and green paint that I think meant it came as part of a combination kit. The green paint was so you would not mistake the H with the C and carve up your 2 minute cylinders.
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Post by maroongem on Feb 9, 2013 15:10:12 GMT -5
Here are a few photos of a crank off a Standard B. It was also used on the Home as well. As you can see, the section with the knob is flat and protrudes past the winding arbor. The one on your machine is finished much nicer and appears to be cast in one piece, whereas the Edison crank was 2 pieces joined at the angle by a flush rivet. The Diamond Mod. B does offer a better sound than the sapphire on a BA IMHO, especially when coupled with a large horn. And yes, The horn for the Standard in 1908 was typically a black 10 panel horn from the factory although a 10 panel cygnet with crane would really be the ultimate sound with a Diamond B on that machine!   |
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Post by phonogfp on Feb 9, 2013 17:59:58 GMT -5
Thanx guys. All this is a big help. Bill: are you sure about that crank? I look at other Model B Standards and don't see a difference. Are you perhaps thinking of the slotted cranks as opposed to the threaded one like this? It would strike me as quite a coincidence if another manufacturer's crank had the exact same thread size. Bill is correct in pointing out that your crank was not originally supplied with the Standard B. Your crank is indeed an Edison crank, but the style supplied with the Fireside Phonograph. I also have a Triumph B (about the same age as your Standard) with a cast crank (although slightly larger) so it's possible that some experimenting with cranks was going on at the factory. As Bill mentioned in another thread on this forum, with Edison it's risky to use the terms "always" or "never!" Production variations are common with this firm. Columbia cast cranks of this period have black painted wooden knobs. George P. |
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Post by martinola on Feb 10, 2013 2:17:35 GMT -5
Bill and George,
I've come across several Standard Model Bs that have the cast type crank. I've yet to notice much, if any pattern to their use. The number seems a bit more than few random swaps from Fireside machines. The biggest concentration seem to be in the early to mid model B range. Almost none of the Model D and up seem to have them. If you're interested, I'd be happy to share my latest Standard data excel file with the cast crank info broken out into its own column.
Regards,
Martin
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Post by phonogfp on Feb 10, 2013 9:13:39 GMT -5
Martin,
That's very interesting! I'd be grateful for a copy of your latest spreadsheet. I have one you sent me a couple of years ago, but I don't recall specific crank information. In any event, it's great to learn something new.
How odd if cast cranks were being used with Standards in 1906, and again with Firesides in 1909 - 1913. No Homes - - only these two models (plus the Triumph) and in separate time frames!
Thanks again,
George P.
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Post by dedune on Feb 10, 2013 9:19:19 GMT -5
Didn't the Fireside model A come out in 1909? That would make this crank a couple years older than that entire line. Maybe they were playing with a new crank design with some of the Standards, which they then used almost exclusively with the Firesides when they came out?
Martin, I would love to see that spreadsheet, just to know as much as I can about my pet project.
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Post by maroongem on Feb 10, 2013 9:25:41 GMT -5
Conversely, I bought a Fireside A with 60+ mixed type cylinders from the original family back in the 80s and it had the flat type crank found on Standards and Homes. I did take Polaroids (yes, Polaroids) of it and I'll have to look and see if I still have them. The machine is long gone, unfortunately.
I did a Google search last evening of Firesides, and the ones that show a good shot of the crank seem to show a mix of both style cranks.
Two of my fellow members of MOCAPS own Firesides, one I know is a Mod. B and the other is an A (I think). I requested photos of the cranks on both machines.
Was it once again using up old stock before switching over? We'll probably never know.
BillF
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Post by phonogfp on Feb 10, 2013 10:30:28 GMT -5
Two of my fellow members of MOCAPS own Firesides, one I know is a Mod. B and the other is an A (I think). I requested photos of the cranks on both machines. BillF For what it's worth, my Fireside A has a cast crank. Over the years, I've observed these cast cranks most often on Firesides. George P. |
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