Palying my machines regualarly?

[Deleted]

Hey guys I have a question. Is it a good idea to play my machine regularly, and how often should they be oiled and greased? The reason why I ask this is, that I don't play them that much, well except for to night. I noticed that when I wind up my DD player, the cranck was turning really easy, until the spring tightened. The machine is running fine, of course, since it's a single spring machine, I wind it up after ever play. Of course after the second winding, the machine slowed down before the disc was over. Right now it's play okay, I just keep watching it. The same thing happend with my cylinder machine, it slowed down by the 3rd cylinder. I did play my machine a while back, after I returned home from my parents house. I oiled the machines, and they played altight. Of course as I said before, the cylinder machine slowed down by the 3rd cylinder. Now I have not played it yet, but I will, and see how it goes. The Victrola, on th other hand is playing just fine.

Paul

[henry]

I can't speak for Edison machines, since I'm a Victor person, but it's probably much the same between the two, in that play time depends mostly on the number of springs in the motor: the more springs, the longer the play; the fewer springs, the shorter the play. My 2-spring VV-XI, fully wound up, will run for more than five minutes, good for about three 10" or two 12" sides, more or less. Edison owners, please chime in here!

[resuming after brief power "outrage"] As for lubrication, I use light machine oil for the bearing ends of all shafts and the turntable spindle, and "grease" for the gears. Light machine oil such as Wahl Clipper Oil (barber supply), LaBelle no. 1 (hobby shop), or valve oil (music store); "grease" I use is A+D Ointment (pharmacy), a combination of Vaseline and lanolin. Unlike plain vaseline, A+D won't dry out over time. It's good for chapped lips, too! As with any other machine, it's best not to overdo the lubrication: a drop of oil at each bearing end is enough, and grease should be visibly coated on all gear teeth and spirals, but not gunked up on them.

As for motor springs, I leave that to the guys who CLA'd my motor (Victrola Repair Service). I think they used automotive bearing grease, at least that's what it looks like to me as it oozes out of the spring canisters. They probably overdid it a bit, but the motor runs fine: steady and quiet.

[Deleted]

Thank you Henry.

[neophone]

Paul,

Yeah, what Henry said. ;D One thing I would add, it's not really important how often you use your machines, but you should let them run down completely when they're not in use for an extended period. And/or let them run all the way down at least once in a while IMHO. That's one of the really great things about these machine-they need very little-yet give so much! ;D

Regards,
J.

[Deleted]

Thanks J. Actually, I do let the machines run down completely. I figured it keeps the spring intact, and that too much tension on it, was not good for the spring.

I use 3 in 1 oil, for my machines.

[henry]

Paul, even though 3-in-1 may be mentioned in your phono's instructions (I read the posts on the other board, too!), don't forget that over the years the formulation may have changed. I find that 3-in-1 is too viscous for the bearings in my XI, but I've had success with the products I mentioned above.

[Deleted]

Thank you henry. Actually, I had someone recomended 3in1 oil.

[lukewarmwater]

Lubrication between moving surfaces only requires one molecule of thickness . . . 3-In-1 is fine. Use all oils sparingly. Singer sewing machine oil is good, too, but lighter. I use 3-In-1 on gear teeth, gear train pinions, and turning shafts in bushings; Singer oil on governor shafts and felt pads, and sliding surfaces such as reproducer carriages on rods. Modern moly greases and graphite greases are good for main springs. White lithium grease is good on Victor spiral gears. Luke W.

[Deleted]

Thank you Luke. The one thing I have noticed, with my machines, especially, with my DD machine, and my Victrola, is that they are eaiser to wind now. Especially, since I started to play them more. When I first bought my Victrola, winding the machine up was a bit hard, becuse it had not been used in awhile. Of course putting some oil on the gears, and shaft helped. The DD machine is really easy to wind, especially when I have not played it for a while, but then it stiffens up a bit, but I guess thats normal? I don't play the cylinder machine much, but I should. BTW: How often should the belt be replaced?

Paul

[lukewarmwater]

Paul -- Dirt and grit combined with poor lubrication are the enemies of moving parts. It is a good investment in your phono's futures for them to be gone through and cleaned and inspected mechanically. As you encounter machines -- most Edison and Columbia cylinder models are easy to check this on -- look at the gear train of the motor and check the gears for misalignment and wear. This is usually particularly evident in the faster turning gears, such as the gear that drives the governor shaft. If the gear is worn, you will literally see the track of the profile of one gear worn into the faces of the teeth of the mating gear, and this wear can be significant. Worn gears can fail eventually and wear can be transferred from one gear to another, and worn gears are also noisy.

Don't overlook the grease in the spring barrels. There is tremendous potential mechanical energy stored in a wound-up spring. As the barrel turns releasing that energy, the tightly wound coils of the spring inside have to move. The grease in the barrel lubricates the spring coils so that they can slide past one another with as little effort as possible allowing as much of the spring's power to be transferred to the barrel and the work of turning it, rather than lost on friction and fighting itself to unwind. When a mainspring is freshly greased. winding it forces the grease through the coils like squeezing a tube of toothpaste; unwinding reverses the direction of the grease. When a spring thumps when playing, it is because the coils have stuck together from old dry grease and they are snapping apart. This is bad, because the spring itself is made from spring steel and is hard and brittle. The sudden release of energy in a thump can cause the spring to break (while on that subject, springs can break anywhere along their length, but commonly at the attachment points at the ends, and the may break across their width, down their lenght, or diagonally. I've even seen them with more than one break!)

So, I hope you see why it's a good idea to have your motors and mechanisms cleaned and serviced, and keep them lubricated (but not over-lubricated) -- like Henry said, just a drop. Lube schedule depends on how much you play them, but I oil my regular players monthly.

As far as belts are concerned, as long as they aren't loose (3/8" deflection at the idler wheel is good on Edisons), don't touch 'em. I have machines (Edison and Columbia) that still have their original belts after over 100 years.

I asked Steve Medved this question in a recent email, but he hasn't responded yet . . . how often should Edison reproducers be rebuilt to maintain optimum performance? I suppose with modern neoprene gaskets vs. rubber, the answer could be just once (at least in this lifetime)?

Luke W.

[Deleted]

Thank you Luke. You know, I have heard the main spring in my DD machine thump, usually when winding up the machine, and well as when it plays. It's playing fine, maybe it just needs grease?

[lukewarmwater]

No Paul, it needs to be disassembled, cleaned, reassembled, re-greased, and regulated. All the old dirt and dried-up lubricants have to be cleaned off. That's the point I was trying to make in my last post -- they are just machines, so the basic rules apply: cleaned, adjusted, lubed. Pull the motor and send it to George Vollema to rebuild. It would be money better spent than buying another machine for your collection. Take care of what you have. Luke W.

[Deleted]

Okay, becuse i just wound up the machine, and did not hear any thumping when I released the brake, and just the the machine run. However I did hear a grinding noise, but it sounded like it was coming from the fly wheel. I'll have to figure out, how to take it out to have George fix it.

BTW: Do you know how to remove the motor from an S-19?

Paul

[lukewarmwater]

First, remove the reproducer, turntable, and crank. Unhook the lid support and allow the lid to open straight up and rest it against the wall behind (but don't let it come all the way back over and break the hinge or damage the cabinet). Next, behind the front grill, the volume control muffler bracket is removed from the horn support rod. Mark the position of the feed plate bracket and the horn support brackets on the horn support rod so you can put everything back in the same place when you reinstall. Then loosen the square head bolts on the horn support and feed plate brackets and pull out the horn support rod from the top by pulling up on the raise/lower handle. The horn will now be free of the motor and bed plate. Unbolt the bedplate from the support brackets and lift out the bed plate and motor in one piece. What you are calling a flywheel is properly called a governor. A governor adjusts to regulate maximum speed, while a flywheel is a solid wheel attached to a shaft to provide mass to ensure momentum. Flywheel does not imply speed regulation. For example, Edison Operas and Amberola V's have spring-floated flywheels on the mandrel shafts to remove flutter, but also have a proper governor to regulate speed.


GLAP
George Vollema
5092 Muskego Drive
Newaygo MI 49337

[phone]
[e-mail]

Luke W.

[Deleted]

Thanks you Luke.