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Post by Matt Brown on Feb 20, 2009 20:25:00 GMT -5
I just picked up a nice Edison J-19 - these cabinets were finished in "stump oak" - I'd like to try to preserve the original finish - does anyone know what that would be? Seems to be something very "light", as it rubs off easily - I'd like to try to preserve the original (even though it's a tad on the ugly side...)
Anyone got any info?
Thanks!
Matt
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Post by larryh on Feb 21, 2009 11:18:17 GMT -5
While I haven't had one of those models I have seen photos of them. They appear to be a rather dull brownish oak shade in a medium grade of darkness. With nearly any oak finish unless its coming off for some reason they can be carefully cleaned with a bar soap rubbed on a damp cloth and then work the cloth over small areas at at time cleaning off the dirt that is loosened with a clean dry or lightly damp cloth. After the cabinet is cleaned a good paste wax usually is all that is needed. If it has some places where the finishes are off a touch up of maybe a close shoe wax color or some water color mixed and applied to the area may bring it up to the point where it won't be too noticeable. It might be possible to add a light wash of shellac over the area and rubbed lightly with fine steel wool to help give the area some depth. Several coats of thinned shellac would be necessary for any kind of depth. If may be that your case has a hand rubbed wax finish as some edisons did, but I think they offered them in several choices of finish.
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Post by Matt Brown on Feb 21, 2009 22:01:36 GMT -5
Thanks Larry - I'll try to post some pics within the next few days - most of the cabinet is quite nice, but the top and one edge of lid are really rough - I intend to keep the dark oak finish, so I'll need to figure out what was used originally - I've been cleaning it, and for the life of me I can't figure out what sort of finish was used, and why it has worn the way it has on the top.
Pics coming soon.
Matt
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Post by matty on Feb 21, 2009 23:20:42 GMT -5
I'm so glad you're at least going to make an effort to preserve the original finish Matt. Most J-19 owners are far to quick at stripping the original finish off these. I'm really looking forward to seeing the machine in it's original state.
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Post by Matt Brown on Feb 22, 2009 1:54:32 GMT -5
You know, I have noticed this; and while I'm not one to usually criticize others on their restoration work, I have to say that I think stripping a J-19 or D-19 and turning it into a golden oak cabinet is just wrong. This is a rare model - although it may not be particularly DESIRABLE, it IS rare and if it can be preserved and/or restored, then it should be kept as original as possible.
I just got done working on it for the night, and it's coming along nicely. Both the original grille cloth and the original TT felt have survived. The record rack needed some help - I'll re-install it tomorrow.
I think that I'm going to have to refinish the top of the lid - it's pretty bad and so far nothing I have done has made any significant improvements that match up to the rest of the cabinet.
Besides being one of the filthiest phonos I've ever cleaned, it's actually in nice condition.
Motor needs some serious help, but I'll worry about that after I get it cosmetically up to snuff....
Pics coming soon!
Matt
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Post by larryh on Feb 22, 2009 8:37:43 GMT -5
Matt I guess you have read the book comments that in 1926 the cabinet was offered with Varnish finish. Before that shellac or wax were most likely the only choices, but I can't find any mention of what that finish was for sure. I know I have seen listed hand waxed in some cabinet descriptions and it would seem that kind of cabinet might denote that type of rather soft and dull finish. You of course know that to test shellac a bit of denatured alcohol rubbed on an out of the way place would reveal a softened surface. If its varnish it should appear harder and more glossy perhaps? Varnish also wouldn't be effected by that test. If the surface seems sort of soft and perhaps not very thick and is easily sort of smeared it might be wax.. Also wax would probably be removable in a out of the way place by using some ammonia on a rag?
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Post by matty on Feb 22, 2009 8:57:53 GMT -5
I think (but I'm not 100% sure) that the J-19 had a finish unique to that machine. From what I remember, it was a fairly dark opaque matt-satin finish which more or less hid the grain. That's probably why most people tend to strip it off, and why I'm looking forward to seeing one as it should be. It makes sense though, that whatever they used would have been based on one of the other products Edison used.
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Post by maroongem on Feb 22, 2009 9:10:07 GMT -5
Was this finish perhaps applied like the Mission/Craftsman style of oak where it was steamed with ammonia in a pressurized room? I wonder if this is why it rubs off easily.
Bill
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Post by Matt Brown on Feb 22, 2009 20:30:49 GMT -5
OK - took some pics: That's the original grille cloth. The original turntable felt was icky, so I cleaned it - it turned out great: ID plate: The top of the lid, and the right side of the lid were quite unsalvage-able, so I stripped them. I need to order to anyline stain tomorrow - I'm hoping that a Jacobean Oak alcohol stain, perhaps darkened with some black/ebony, shellac, and followed up by a good coat of dark brown Briwax will do the trick.... Matt
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Post by matty on Feb 23, 2009 0:41:44 GMT -5
Wow! That's the best J-19 I've seen pictures of. I've never been able to see the shading effect on the finish before. It looks SO much better than stripped machines I've seen done in golden oak. Good luck matching the finish too. It's going to be one mighty fine example of this rare machine.
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Post by larryh on Feb 23, 2009 9:27:44 GMT -5
One thing for sure, that is not the finish I had in mind. I don't know for sure, but it looks remarkably close to the Edison Brown finish that so many machines had. All that gloss doesn't seem like the correct finish somehow. Those machines we usually subdued looking, almost hand rubbed at least in the finishes I have seen. I wonder if someone has over coated it with a new finish? I don't think that the top will come up to the effects your now seeing on the sides and under the lid with just wax.
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Post by Matt Brown on Feb 23, 2009 22:26:05 GMT -5
I'd bet lots of money (if I had lots of money!) that it has the original finish - it's worn evenly, etc. - not as glossy in real life (it does look rather shiny in the pics). I wrote "shellac" in my last post - meant to write "varnish" - The only part that conderns me is getting the oak dark enough to match - my experience with oak is that stains don't "soak in" and get dark. I'm guessing I may have to shade it with some black stain, and "dirtyit up" with some pumice to get a correct match. It'll be awhile before I finish it, but I'll post pics when it's done.
Matt
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brad
New Member
So many phonographs, so little money.....
Posts: 5
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Post by brad on Feb 23, 2009 22:30:57 GMT -5
Matt,
Nice machine. I have an earlier version (D25) that had been stripped many many years before I got it. I know the pure-ists will say it should be dark, however, the stump oak is quite remarkable when it is allowed to be seen.
From what I have been able to ascertain, these are rare beasts to be sure.
I don't know what the original finish was comprised of. There was an article on this model in ITG in either April or October of 2006 that discussed the finish (I don't have my archives handy). Also, Covah restored a real basket case one of these a year or two back. I think he ended up removing the dark finish as it was too far gone, but he may have some thoughts as to what the original finish was.
The reproducer on my machine had a copper diaphram. No-one I have spoken with had ever seen one. Per chance does yours have a copper one as well? I am trying to figure out if this was associated with the model or maybe just an aftermarket replacement.
Brad
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Post by Matt Brown on Feb 23, 2009 22:49:26 GMT -5
Brad,
Thanks for the note. I saw a pic of yours on another board - looks beautiful. Is it two-tone (did they leave the underside of the lid dark, or strip away the decal and all)?
Mine does not have a copper diaphragm. Does anyone here know: wasn't the copper diaphragm used in early DD reproducers for a short time? I've never come across one, but I've heard from others who have found them.
I'll have to see if I can track down the ITG article.... if I do, I'll post info here.
Matt
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Post by larryh on Feb 24, 2009 9:43:26 GMT -5
My guess is that the copper diaphragm was the late replacement that edison service men were given access too after they no longer produced the shellac rice paper and cork one. Ron Dethelefson told me they produced them for replacements in the 30's but that the sound quality was not up to the original.
Matt your probably right about the finish.. It does look different most likely in photos than in real person. Hard to get a exact photo it seems.. Could it be that they used a varnish stain to produce an overly dark finish and that explains why when it rubs though it gets so light, or when you remove parts of it it is so light underneath. I know some phonograph companies used those for darker models.
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