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Post by joernone on Mar 12, 2013 15:45:05 GMT -5
Greetings from Arkansas,
You can't get any newer to the Edison crowd than I am. About 10 days ago I bought a C250 that had a bunch of DD records with it (I think they're DD).
That's it. You now know the extent of my Edison phonograph knowledge. But so as not to heavily lean on everyone, I have been doing a bit of reading, so I present myself in a somewhat armed manner. Ex.: I've downloaded and printed out the New Edison Disc Motor Repair Manual.
Questions:
1. Are all the 1/4" thick Edison records Diamond Disc? I have three different types, all Edison, all 1/4" thick, some having paper labels, some just sporting the Edison relief and shield.
2. My unit came with a balance No.3 reproducer. From what I've read it's an adapter that can be used to play DD records. True or not?
3. Re: original Edison DD reproducers. They apparently came in different sizes: #7,8,9,10,11,12, maybe more. To what are the sizes referring? And what size will I be needing?
4. The wooden speaker grill is missing on this unit, but I think I've found a repro site: Gramp's Treasures. Has anyone ever partaken of his offerings? Recommended...not recommended?
5. During my C250 info prowling I noticed units with speaker cloths in red, green, gray and gold. What was the original color?
That's it for now. Without a doubt there will be many more queries to come.
Regards,
John
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Post by maroongem on Mar 12, 2013 16:21:31 GMT -5
Hi John and welcome to the board! So you have yourself a C-250. A very nice machine that had the largest horn Edison offered plus a 2 spring motor. This and it's later incarnation the C-19, is my favorite cabinet style offered by Edison. Is your cabinet mahogany or oak? I've seen more of the C-250 in oak as it was still a popular wood up until the late teens.
I believe your Balance #3 soundbox is for playing horizontal-cut records such a Victor or Columbia product. The Edison Standard Reproducer had a diamond stylus and was designed for Edison's vertical-cut records. You won't get much sound out of a soundbox that was made for horizontal-cut on an Edison Diamond Disc, and you could damage the surface, according to some.
I like the work that Tom (Gramp's Treasures) puts out, and you can stain it to match your cabinet.
As far as the grille cloth, it would depend on the wood used on the cabinet. Oak had a greenish silk-like cloth and mahogany was a goldish-brown.
The correct Reproducer for your machine would be the aforementioned Edison Standard Diamond Disc Reproducer. The issue is to get one that has a good diamond and new gaskets preferably. There are several vendors on the main page in "Web Sources for parts/repairs that should have what you need.
BillF
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Post by phonogfp on Mar 12, 2013 16:41:02 GMT -5
Hello John, and welcome!
The C-250 is a great machine; one of the best the company offered. Unlike some of the other models with smaller horns and single-mainspring motors, you'll never outgrow a C-250 if you plan on playing Edison discs. Many collectors, due to space considerations, keep only one machine to play Edison discs, and the C-250 (later re-named the C-19) is a very popular choice. Now for your questions:
1) If the Edison disc is 1/4" thick, it's a "Diamond Disc." The sales terminology varied through the years ("Re-Creation" or simply "Record"), but they're all vertically recorded discs. In 1929, Edison finally introduced a lateral cut disc (called "Edison Needle-Cut"), but they're scarce, and they CANNOT be played on your mchine without an adapter. Speaking of which...
2) Your Balance No. 3 is an adapter, but used for regular 78s such as Victor, Columbia, Brunswick, and hundreds of other brands.
3) I don't know what the different sizes are with regard to original Edison Disc Reproducers. Although there are a few different models, they're all the same size and all will fit a C-250. Original Edison Disc Reproducers are plentiful, but you must be sure the diamond stylus is not worn or otherwise damaged. If you need one, I'd buy it from a reputable dealer or in person at a show where it can be demonstrated to you. (There are large phonograph shows at Wayne NJ in April and October, in Union Illinois every June, in Los Angeles every August, and other smaller shows as well such as North Carolina and Tampa Florida.)
4) Gramp's makes probably the best reproduction grilles available. Highly recommended.
5) The color of the grille cloth varied with the finish (oak or mahogany) and sometimes for no apparent reason. They usually (but not always) match the turntable felt, which is usually green. A silky material with an olive green color is usually a good bet.
One last point: lateral cut records cannot be played with an Edison Disc Reproducer, and Edison Discs cannot be played with a steel needle. Doing either will cause immediate harm to the records. Steel needles must be changed after each record.
You'll find more information on another searchable site called the Talking Machine Forum. Google it, click on "Machines" and do a search at the bottom of the page. Lots of information...
Congratulations on your purchase, and feel free to ask away!
George P.
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Post by phonogfp on Mar 12, 2013 16:42:45 GMT -5
Bill, you beat me to the punch!!
Oh well, maybe John will believe two of us more readily than one...!
George P.
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Post by joernone on Mar 12, 2013 18:26:34 GMT -5
Thanks much. I appreciate your fast and knowledgable replies. More questions: 1. The various Edison standard reproducer sizes I've run across (#7 thru #12, and others) must have some kind of significance. I'm wondering if all, regardless of size number, will connect right up to the reproducer support knurled collar. What say ye? 2. Was there only one size diamond stylus? Are repros or replacements available? 3. How would one determine if a diamond stylus is worn or dull? What would it sound like while playing a DD record? 4. I'm a total moron when it comes to identifying wood types (except balsa ;D), but the platter felt is green and the cabinet is dark in color...like dark walnut. Might the cabinet be mahogany then? 5. Removing the motor from the cabinet: The service instructions say: Let the motor run completely down...Remove the winding crank...Remove the reproducer...Lift off the turntable. Are they talking about lifting off the platter or the entire turntable. If turntable, then I assume it'll just lift right out of the cabinet lickety-split like. Seems it would be connected to the horn, no? More questions to come. Hey, y'all asked for it.  Regards, John |
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Post by joernone on Mar 12, 2013 20:52:21 GMT -5
Two more questions:
1. Ballpark figure: Approximately how many plays (or hours) could be expected from a new DD reproducer stylus before it would need replacement? Or is this a reasonable question?
2. The answer to this could solve many of my initial issues:
What would be a fair price for a DD reproducer having a rebuilt stylus and original cord linkage.
Regards,
John
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Post by phonogfp on Mar 12, 2013 21:43:38 GMT -5
John,
Let's see if I can do this before Bill outdraws me again!
1) I'm really puzzled where you're running across these reproducer "sizes" (7-12). Can you share the source of this information? I've been collecting for 45 years and I've never heard of such a thing. Edison Disc reproducers come in only one size (although in several variations/models), and yes, they all fit into the knurled collar.
2) All Edison Disc styli are the same size except for a scarce Long Play reproducer which won't be a problem for us - unless there's a little lever mounted immediately to the right of your bedplate marked "LONG" and "SHORT." (This kit could have been added to your machine later, but the odds are against it.) Anyway, replacement styli are available, but many collectors have been complaining lately of poor quality. For now, I'd look for an all-original reproducer. They aren't hard to find and shouldn't cost more than $100 - - often more like $75.
3) To determine the stylus's condition, it should be lowered into the playoff area outside of the label. Under good light, watch the blank surface of the record. If the stylus is leaving traces, it's no good. If it's not, try playing a common record (Edison, of course!) to test it. It should sound fine, but if there's buzzing or if the music cuts in and out - - anything out of the ordinary - - keep looking. As i say, finding a good reproducer should be easy.
4) If the cabinet is a dark brownish-red color and has a barely perceptible grain - straight and fine - it's probably mahogany. The vast majority of C-250s are mahogany.
5) The platter and the turntable are the same thing. The turntable should lift straight up off the center spindle, but if it hasn't been removed in years it may need coaxing. Be sure to remove the reproducer first! If necessary, place one hand at the 3:00 position and the other hand at the 9:00 position, put your fingers below the edge of the turntable and then bend them slightly to wedge the turntable upward. Once it's off, it will go on and come off much easier. As for removing the bedplate/motor/horn assembly, I don't recommend that unless it's absolutely necessary. Beneath the turntable are oiling receptacles whose tubes lead to all the critical points. If your machine is simply dusty, these tubes should still work. If they're clogged, you can oil the motor by working around the horn with a tube oiler and flashlight. just oil where the tubes go. It's far easier than removing the motor!
1a) How many hours is a stylus good for? Good question. All of mine are original, so that's closing in on between 84-100 years. I imagine stylus life will depend on the cleanliness of the records and the care with which the stylus is lowered to the record. Nice and easy - no flipping that lever!
2a) I alluded to this earlier, but a rebuilt reproducer with a new stylus may cost closer to $125 or so. Our hobby isn't built on strict prices (although a new stylus will set you back $75-$80 just for the stylus). I've bought all-original Edison Disc Reproducers for $10. But if I needed one, I'd be willing to pay $100. It's the luck of the draw - you may get lucky. And once again, these are not hard to find.
Bed time!
George P.
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Post by larryh on Mar 12, 2013 22:13:27 GMT -5
At the moment the new stylus available seems to have issues with breaking down rather quickly. I have gone though 7 of them in about that many years. Several scratched the surfaces very soon after installation.. I would wait as it may be that another source is coming along, but that isn't for sure yet. As to the old ones.. I recently bought a machine that had the original stylus and it did not leave any run off marks. However although it did play with somewhat fuzzy sound due to many years of wear. I notice now that its also causing some change in the playing grooves all the while its not still marking the run off which is a puzzle to me.
The proper way to remove the turntable is in that manual you downloaded. You do have to remove the two square shaped bolts that hold the lifting rod to the horn. Then also the spring that rides the bottom of the motor board has a screw on it that must be released before it will let the lifting rod come up out of the machine. You also will need to remove the sound muting ball and release the screw that holds the spring wire set up that moves the ball in an out. Then with those things free and the bolts removed from under the wood surround that hold the motor you should swing the horn to the far left and lift up on it slightly as suggested in the manual so that the gears that drive the horn are not engaged. Putting it back you have to get the slot in the lifting rod lined up with the right side bolt as it gives it a solid grip against the rod. Just study the suggested steps and do so with care so as not to damage anything. Unfortunately Edisons are not quite so simple to remove as the more common standard machines..
Larry
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Post by joernone on Mar 12, 2013 23:58:54 GMT -5
BONK...I shoulda had a V8. Before posting here, I spent some time checking out all the ebay DD reproducer offerings...numbered in what I thought were their sizes. A 4th look made me realize the numbers were not sizes...but merely the numbered offerings by one seller. Apparently, he sold the first six. My bad. Live and learn, gents.  But if y'all think that's the last dumb thing I'll post here, then you're sadly mistaken. During my past learning curves, I've come up with some brain-dead doozies. Moving right along...I've been in touch with Gramp (Tom) and the wooden speaker grill issue is now history. So only the lack of a standard reproducer remains...and of course the unit's overall inspection, cleaning, oiling, small veneer repairs, a million more questions, etc. So what to do about the reproducer? I now know I can get one for not all that many bucks, but not truly knowing its stylus condition would be like buying a pig in a poke. Seems awfully risky. If it were too worn I'd be out the money and right back in the same position. So I'm open to suggestions. To whom would you go to get one? Thanks again, folks. You're all teaching me well...reminding me of someone I know in Detroit. I'll try to soon get a video of the phonograph uploaded to Youtube and post the link here. I'll take it out on the deck where there's lots of light.  Regards, John |
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Post by lucius1958 on Mar 13, 2013 2:32:42 GMT -5
Congratulations! I've recently restored a C-250, and it's my favorite DD machine!
As for reproducers: It would be best to check with some reputable dealers: George Vollema, of 'Great Lakes Antique Phonograph' is one, and I'm sure other members will give their own recommendations. Ask to see if they have any with good original styli; new diaphragms and gaskets are more easily available.
I would advise giving the whole motor a good cleaning, just on principle; anything that's been hanging around for nearly a century could use it...
BillS
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Post by maroongem on Mar 13, 2013 5:37:41 GMT -5
John, Let's see if I can do this before Bill outdraws me again! George P. Seriously? I wasn't aware that this was a race to see who can answer first.................. BillF |
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Post by phonogfp on Mar 13, 2013 6:45:05 GMT -5
No, not seriously - just a bit of lightheartedness. Sorry...
George P.
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Post by joernone on Mar 13, 2013 12:43:24 GMT -5
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Post by phonogfp on Mar 13, 2013 13:31:30 GMT -5
John,
Looks pretty good. Your experience with old radios should serve you well, although of course no electricity is involved with the C-250.
You already have the lid off (yes, the hinge is original), so removing the mechanism will be facilitated. You'll see one flat-head bolt on one side of the bedplate, and two on the other side. Remove them (catch the square nuts with your other hand) and then the entire mechanism with horn can be lifted straight up out of the cabinet. I lay these on their sides to work on them.
The C-250 was manufactured from 1915-1919.
When searching for your Edison reproducer, search for an "Edison Diamond Disc Reproducer." If you ask for a Standard reproducer, you may get something for an earlier cylinder phonograph called an Edison Standard Phonograph.
Have fun!
George P.
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Post by joernone on Mar 13, 2013 21:01:47 GMT -5
New question:
The finish under the lid has an orange peel look. Is that original?
I ask because it appears someone in the past painted this lid (and maybe the entire cabinet) with shellac. There were drips and runs along the 1 1/4" wide edge where the lid meets the top of the cabinet. Rubbing alcohol and elbow grease managed to dissolve and remove almost all of them.
Regards,
John
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