steve
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Post by steve on Nov 16, 2006 23:50:35 GMT -5
Thanks, Bill, here is what I have on DD serial numbers and letter codes.
Edison reproducers have letters before the serial numbers: LG is long play EM is one with Duncan stop LD is the Dance no letters & A to F Regular DD reproducer Edison started out with just numbers and when he got so high (999999) he started over with an A and worked his way up. NS before the serial number Edisonic NS after the serial number Converted Edisonic I know of two Dance that were converted to Edisonics and have a serial number like this LD 4675 NS. Edison never wasted. You could trade in a regular reproducer and $6.75 and save $12.75 on an Edisonic, Edison then modified the head with a larger limit loop and installed the heavy weight and thicker diaphragm on it.
With regards to the stylus bars I have seen letters up to a T and I am not sure what they were for unless it was Edison's way of keeping track of each series, but I have no idea why. The only change I know of in diamond stylus is explained below and I will be happy to e-mail a photo to anyone that is interested in seeing how this was done.
According to Edison Diamond Disc Re-Creations records & artists 1910-1929 page 107:
In this process the diamonds were first silver plated, then mounted on rods with paraffin, plated for 72 hours with nickel layers electro deposited under tension. The styli were thus held under layers of nickel at thousands of pounds of pressure. The nickel-encased diamonds were then polished to conical shape, the nickel at the stylus point being found away as the diamond was polished. The finished stylus was then soldered into its stylus bar. In the early days, bare diamonds were just soldered into bars and were prone to breakage when carelessly lowered onto the record.
The original DD styli were soldered in. The earliest bars have the bare diamond soldered in; the later ones were first plated with nickel and then soldered in. To understand this think of a wooden pencil the diamond is the lead. When the pencil is sharpened the wood is removed and the lead is shaped, the wood is the nickel and the lead is the diamond.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 4, 2006 10:32:12 GMT -5
Shane,
You can tell the age of the reproducer by the serial number.
Edison reproducers have letters before the serial numbers: LG is long play EM is one with Duncan stop LD is the Dance no letters & A to F Regular DD reproducer Edison started out with just numbers and when he got so high (999999) he started over with an A and worked his way up. NS before the serial number Edisonic NS after the serial number Converted Edisonic You could trade in a regular reproducer and $6.75 and save $12.75 on an Edisonic, Edison then modified the head with a larger limit loop and installed the heavy weight and thicker diaphragm on it.
Each phonograph and reproducer had a serial number, when the model O came out it was two weeks wages.
947 copper oxidized is the earliest serial number I have seen, F80885 is the latest and it was converted to an Edisonic so the serial number is F80885 NS. I have seen two Dance reproducers that were converted to the New Standard they have serial numbers like LD 9476 NS and did not have the small spring or the cross bar it was connected to. Edison never wasted and continually improved things so he went to cork gaskets as the natural rubber began to harden after as little as six months around 1923. The Dance and Edisonic diaphragms are thicker than the regular ones, which is why the Bogantz diaphragm works so well in them. The small spring on the Edisonic and Dance that attaches to the stylus bar does make a difference in the sound.
To the best of my knowledge the copper oxidized reproducer was made like this:
The reproducer was copper plated (do not know if it was polished), then hot wax was used to make a pattern. The reproducer was then dipped in the oxidizing material and when the wax was removed you had the copper pattern. Edison clear coated it with shellac like he did the diamond A and model L.
There are at least three types of the oxidized type reproducers, the tiger striped one that is copper oxidized like the Idelia and Opera, I have seen two on the final style of DD reproducer so by 1915 they were made in much smaller quantities.
Edison standard DD reproducer types:
The first style of Edison reproducer was made in 1912 to 1913 and is similar to the diamond B weight; this is the only reproducer that is not interchangeable. Ron estimated that about 5000 were made. These were recalled as the first DD record was thinner, .22 of an inch, the later ones were .25.
The second style of reproducer was made from 1913 to 1915 and has the stylus bar shoulder assembly held on with four screws. If you look down the throat of this reproducer you will see a sleeve that, in my opinion, gives strength to the joint where the head is joined to the sound tube.
The third type is the most common and was made from 1915 to 1926 and I have only seen 2 copper oxidized in this style. The only change in these occurred in the A series when the when the dome of the cup was made thicker resulting in about a 2 oz. weight increase and the elimination of the inner sleeve. Ron said it may have been done to reduce vibration.
The second oxidized style:
This was only on the third style of reproducer, I have only seen it with the Duncan stop which works like this, via wiring a battery is connected to a stop, when the reproducer goes into the runoff area at the end the insulated limit loop pin’s bare area contacts the limit loop which completes the circuit and causes the electro magnet stop to work, all of these have three screws on the hinge block cover, a hole in the hinge block for the wire, and the letters EM before the serial number for electro magnet. The Duncan came out in 1917 so this helps to date this one. The insulation on the limit loop prevents the stop from working when you lift the reproducer, or it is up and in the rested position. I have seen the Duncan stop in gold; it was available from around April 1917 to March 1920 first on the art models, then on the higher end models like the C-250. The bent limit loop was made for the Duncan stop reproducer and you will find it on regular reproducers so Edison either made them all that way for a while or used up the extra, or inter-mixed them as they are found on regular reproducers.
If you look at the Frow book under the A-150 it says the B-150 was available in gold or oxidized bronze, not to be confused with oxidized copper.
The third oxidized style was called the antique finish by Edison and was available from around 1923 on as the Dance and Edisonic came with this finish as well as the regular and long play reproducer did. This style looks like the whole reproducer was blued, brass will blue. Then it appears the reproducer was polished as you can see the brass in a pattern that goes around the edge of the bottom of the weight, around the head of the reproducer and in lines around the sound tube.
As with any of my reproducer articles corrections or suggestions are most welcome and if anyone has any model O or N reproducers I am looking for serial numbers to complete my study on these.
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 4, 2006 0:28:55 GMT -5
There are three different oxidized DD reproducers, copper found on the A models these are rarely seen on the last style of reproducer that came out in 1915, bronze ones and the ones that came out in the mid 1920's that Edison called the Antique finish, you see regular, long play and Edisonics with these. The copper oxidized is like the finish found on the Idelia and opera. If you want photos, contact me with your e-mail. The bronze oxidized finish I have only seen this style with the Duncan stop. Frow is really not clear on the copper oxidized one, but Ron D said they came on the A models. All three have different patterns and the one from the 1920's is often called gun metal.
Frow does say the bronze oxidized reproducer was available on the B-150.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 17, 2006 22:33:53 GMT -5
Homes were heated with coal and wood and the amount of soot that settled on some of the phonos is amazing, especially cylinder phonos.
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 5, 2006 20:10:00 GMT -5
Hi J,
Rebuilding reproducers is an art, when I first rebuild reproducers there was not any difference because I did not know what I was doing. Each reproducer has its problem areas and I put together an article for DD reproducer rebuilding, any comments, questions, suggestions or corrections are most welcome.
Steve
The stylus bar should almost move under its own weight on the pin, but not quite, and easily with your finger. This is one of the critical areas, too tight you loose sound volume, too loose you lose sound quality. The pins should be tight in the shoulders. The shoulder assembly that is screwed to the weight is the second style of weight, the integral ones are the third and final for the standard DD reproducer and they do not work differently. After you install the stylus bar you have to make sure it still moves freely, I do this by using a straight pin and installing the stylus bar to make sure the shoulders are not causing it to bind, then I install the pin.
There is no sound difference in a good Edison diamond and the Expert one. Today Expert uses synthetic diamonds, and a more precise cut. The big difference is the Expert pin is smaller and almost press fitted into the Expert reproduction bar and the Edison pin is larger and should fit loosely on the stylus bar. I always open up the Expert and use the original Edison pin. Expert is not perfect; I know of two of their styli that had more surface noise than theirs normally does.
Installing the new reproduction Expert stylus bar is a challenge because the original Edison stylus bar pin is 0.0272 and the new Expert pin is 0.0254 and it is practically press fitted. The new bar pin will fit loosely in the shoulders, while Edison the pin is meant to fit tight in the shoulders and loose on the bar. You want the pin fit to be so that the stylus bar almost, but not quite moves on its own weight. You will need a #70 (0.0272) and #71 (0.0254 ) drill bit and you will use the 70 by hand more as a file to make sure you don't make the hole too big. The pin that comes from Expert stylus is 0.0252 and is the size of a #71 drill bit and I believe the Edison ones are 0.0272, the size of a #70 drill bit. Expert fits tight in the bar and loose in the shoulders, that is why I drill the Expert bar out and use the original pin. I got these sizes from a micrometer at work, the actual size a 70 and 71 is supposed to be is 0.0280 for a 70 and 0.0260 for a 71.
To properly fit a new Expert bar I use a #71 drill bit on a Dremel and a #70 by hand and keep on checking. If you have a freely moving hinge block, a good stylus, a good diaphragm or a Bogantz diaphragm, the proper size gaskets (only Wyatt's sells the ones that are the same size as the ones Edison used, that I have found, others are too wide and the OD is too small) and you perfectly adjust the pin you can have a reproducer that sounds halfway between a regular and an Edisonic. Dave had pin that was too tight for his bar and he used 600 grit sandpaper to size it. I was amazed at the difference it made, when I replaced the pin with a normal one the sound was the same as a normal one.
On a DD the critical areas are hinge block movement, diaphragm condition, stylus pin fit and stylus bar movement, and compression ring tension. The next time you play a record look at how much the limit loop pin moves, if it does not move freely sound quality and volume will suffer. With the Bogantz you get better sound with the compression ring tighter. With the hinge block I remove the hinge block and then I polish the rod that goes through the body and clean and polish the area where the rod contacts inside the body, Edison must have used oil which gums up. If I use oil I use a special kind that will not gum up, oil for sleeve bearings on model electric trains. A warped diaphragm will also decrease sound quality and the Bogantz sounds best on the Edisonic. On the Edisonic reproducer the small spring that hooks up to the Edisonic stylus bar does make a difference in the sound.
I have also found you can remove the diaphragm link from the stylus bar without spreading it by taking the part that looks like a U that is attached to a bucket which holds the silk link and put the stylus bar so it touches the’ bucket’, and move it around and it comes out, some more easily than others, but you do not have to spread and then close the bar end.
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steve
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Post by steve on Dec 2, 2007 17:45:03 GMT -5
Bill,
I have the 6" version without the box.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2007 9:31:53 GMT -5
Hi,
The purpose of this record was to train employees how to be proficient using the Ediphone.
This was a practice record for the Ediphone so people could learn how to use the Ediphone. The Ediphone used the wax cylinders, the person would make recordings at his convenience and later on the secretary could make a letter, file a report, or make records. I have one of these and I think it is 90 wpm, it talks about a bank. The different wpm was to allow people to start low and work their way up.
I owned one of these for 10 years before I found out what it was. I saw one on eBay being sold as rare 6 inch blue amberol and it got around $50 and never met reserve. This is the first one I have seen with a box like that.
I hope you get it.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 2, 2007 19:56:44 GMT -5
Is there a place that has photos of all the Edison 2 M boxes with dates? The blue blank boxes are the earlier ones, they were blue before the lined boxes came out and after.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 2, 2007 19:52:38 GMT -5
I like dealing with him, I purchased DD's from him sight unseen and I was very happy. I won't even buy these on eBay.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 11, 2007 18:49:08 GMT -5
When wax Amberols were made it was decided to make them with flat ends to avoid confusion with two minute records. Blue Amberols continued to have flat ends for several months, the May 22, 1913 report of the Amusement Committee noted that mould scratches had been reduced and the extraction of records from the mould had been made easier by reverting to beveled ends for Blue Amberols. Flat end BA's did not die a quick death and many were issued throughout the middle and late 1910's. The seem to be common in released of the US Marine Band before 1921.
Hope this answers your question.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 15, 2007 21:05:26 GMT -5
$16.01, what a bargain!!!!!!!!!!
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 8, 2007 18:49:18 GMT -5
These are are rare, I have seen them sell on eBay for around $40 to $150. The box is extremely hard to find. Mine is excellent and is loud and plays better with a diamond B than a model O. With the model O it has a lot more surface noise than a regular wax record. The later wax amberol wax 2 minute records sound wonderful in Excellent condition, but when they get worn they have a lot of surface noise. The US Phonograph Co of Cleveland has the best surface for low noise. This one does not look like it is in very good shape, but would be a good record to get.
The only other 2 minute blue amberols I know of are the ICS language records.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 8, 2007 19:07:50 GMT -5
No photo, high postage, no bids.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 8, 2007 19:21:36 GMT -5
Luke,
According to Ron Dethlefson's BA Recordings 1912 to 1915 it was released December 1912.
BA 1576 is on the second list - December 1912. The fist list was November 1912.
Steve
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steve
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Post by steve on Jun 11, 2007 18:31:25 GMT -5
The grooves on the brown wax are not as deep so you can often hear them better with a listening tube, I used a stethoscope to make one, the volume control from an Ediphone listening tube is nice and does not transfer noise.
Steve
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